Problematic Indigenous Writers and the Hype Around There There

Well warranted hype for Tommy Orange's There There which delivers the goods from a currently-not-embroiled-in-some-type-of-controversy indigenous writer.

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[DanMartinlikesyou]

This has been on my TBR for a little bit now, and I'm so happy to hear you enjoyed it.

[plotthreads]

Well I absolutely have to pick this up. That disparate threads weaving together to form a larger narrative you described is one of my favorite things to read

[LauraFreyReadinginBed]

I think both Boyden and Alexie demonstrate why it's a bad idea to let *any* author become, like a beacon for an entire group of people. Boyden's identity crisis and his propping up of UBC Accountable go hand in hand, too, so actually sexual harrassment and assault are wrapped up in both these scandals. For me, There There was good but not great, I didn't see much difference in the voice between the many different characters, and it was all a little too convenient, like, everyone finding their family and what not. So the hype kind of killed it for me. I've read two books recently from Sherman Alexie's students, this one and Heart Berries - neither totally worked for me.

I also still love The Orenda (and have a similar pic of me and Boyden from an event in 2014!) but you have to wonder if it was so palatable because it's actually written by a fellow settler, not from an Indigenous perspective as it was presented?

[Stormbrise]

I just finished this book, thought I had about 20 pages left. So I felt it ended quite suddenly. I am still processing the book before I read Wandering Stars. I need that time, to come to terms from the opening and closing chapters and all the ones in between. I feel so drawn to the characters, maybe I relate the most with Opal. So, hello from a member of the Alsea band of the Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians, Oregon.

[TheStoryscapeShow]

It really does live up to the hype! Thanks for the broadened perspective about it too. That chihuahua bit 😧

[ArielBissett]

Great discussion. Saw this one at Chapters yesterday and now wish I’d picked it up!

[BookishWardo]

Wow, I’ve seen this book around a lot but didn’t know what it’s about, sounds really interesting. I’ve always wanted to read something about indigenous groups in North America, the situation here seems a little different from Brazil and other South American countries.

[bookishsabrina]

Such a great, concise discussion! I would have bought this book because of the hype anyway, but it was selected for The Strand's Book Hookup box for the summer quarter and I was thrilled to receive it. I might wait a little while to let some of the hype blow over, but I am really looking forward to it :)

[laceyh]

Not to be the indigenous person giving a lecture, but while I think it's important to think about the ways in which indigenous identity can be exploited for the benefit of outside party, I don't know how productive it is to play the game about indigenous identity. I'm from the US and don't know a ton about the legal system in the US around indigenous people, but I come from an indigenous group in the US and find it deeply frustrating. Indigenous people are among the only who have to federally prove their identity and are constantly expected by outsiders to provide documentation or proof or whatever in order to lay claim to heritage. While that is obviously due to legal reasons wherein indigenous people are often entitled to certain aids from the government, it happens in social situations, professional ones, and platforms like youtube. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I love your videos and how thoughtful and intelligent your discussion is. But to push indigenous people to "come clean" is...well, it's hard. I don't know too much about Boyden, but I think people and media tend to feel much more welcome to be skeptical of indigenous heritage, and in fact often feel rightfully entitled to proof, to some kind of truth, to documents or ID cards or a closetful of regalia or something. And while it sounds far-fetched, I know a great number of people who identify with and hail from many different tribes. Most tribal entities as we know them came together into hard and fast groups with some concept of citizenship and with a sense of distinct ethnic separation from even nearby, culturally interwoven people only in response to colonialism. The moment of colonial contact necessitated clearer diplomatic groups which formed along fault lines of language, region, family, in some cases seasonal migratory habits or marriage, means of documentation and record-keeping, storytelling and cultural preservation practices, etc etc etc. As colonizers continued to move westward, individual groups and their deeply connected co-cultures were killed, brutally forced into false assimilation, or beaten westward into OTHER cultures which were forming clearer diplomatic, international lines amidst each other. General cultural clashes happened, as did wars, battles, and treaties between nations. It wasn't just the "Indians" and the white people--it was complex intergovernmental, international, interethnic relationships on both sides. And that led to manhy complex cultural stories in the backgrounds and family trees of indigenous people. Cultures are interwoven. In the US, Cherokee people started in the Carolinas but settled largely in the Southern state of Oklahoma and surrounding region and less so North near the Ojibwe people in the great lakes region. These areas had extant indigenous cultures, and other indigenous nations had to move to these areas as well. It's not always cut and dry, particularly because many--although absolutely not all--indigenous groups still hold some of the less American or anglican or European ideas about governing bodies or national boundaries or national identities. Yet, the system in which indigenous nations must exist, as imposed by colonizing governments in order to perpetuate the process of colonization in North America, does demand defined national identities and an existence centered around matching the diplomatic customs/expectations of the US and Canada as defined largely by France and Britain hundreds of years ago. So at any rate, all this to say that it is a complicated history. Culture as we understand is relative to our own culture, and while it's fair to criticize a mishandling of indigenous culture, it's also fair to think about where external groups get the license to make that criticism on behalf of "in" groups, to think about how freely picking apart indigenous identity and demanding that it be documented actually harms indigenous people.

[MEmneina]

Hmmm! The Orenda is on the shelf at the bookshop in my local library. Perhaps I should buy it! It’s only $1. I keep overlooking it.

[Robert.Sheard]

I feel lost that I've never heard of Boyden. His WWI title sounds like my kind of novel.

[BookworminBarrie]

Where would you suggest starting with Boyden? I have all his novels but have yet to pick them up lol.

[samantha.irenes]

Have you read any Louise Erdrich? I think LaRose would be right up your street

[bigalbooksforever]

I really enjoyed There There as well. Fun to read with lots to give the reader to think about. And that pow wow section of the narrative was brilliant!

Really interested to see what Boyden's next move is going to be. It's none of my business what his real "identity" is, but what I think is more interesting is that he was Canada's go-to representative for the Indigenous experience. I think that speaks great volumes about Canadians and what kind of voices/narratives are accepted in the mainstream. I'm excited to see other voices to break through, but no one else has seen anywhere near the success Boyden has so far... #canlitdrama

[homolibrariensis]

I struggle with whether to read more of Boyden's work. I really enjoyed three day road and want to read the Orenda but...seeing him give a talk soon after the controversy started was painful. He tapdanced around the issue so charismatically, I just don't think I can lend him any support....

[josmith]

I didn’t know about the controversy surrounding Boyden, only that I wanted to read his books but these topics are always of interest. Glad to hear another positive vote for There There, I always appreciate it when the hype is well deserved.

[OnyxKwina]

As the core demographic, an indigenous reader, who is supposed to be hyping this book up, I was let down by it. There were chapters that didn't seem to serve any purpose or enlighten the readers understanding of native people. the characters often had little agency, wandering around clueless in their own plot. When they are highlighted they serve as a mouthpiece for the author to spoon-feed you his own personal thoughts.
If this viewpoint occurred only a couple times, I might forgive this. But, Orange's ongoing bashing of his own people, is baffling to me. There were no answers being given, just the highlighting the standard pity the Native narrative, that only further harms our agency to solve issues like suicide or domestic violence within our city communities, that are quite common in America. Why bring up these issues, if the author has nothing new to say?
Maybe this is only apparent to me as a native reader.
But, I found his belittling of the traditional Native person troubling, perhaps its due to his own lack of native insight though, since he is half German, and had little interaction with why traditional people and why they do what they do. He can't understand why some forego education for a traditional path? He cant tell you why traditional native people choose to travel through out North America powwowing, they must do it for the money, right?
We need to make room for more native voices, who actually come from these communities and aren't just highly educated white raised tourists within them. There are the MBA "Indians" who are pinned against those who live a traditional lifestyle, one doesn't seem to understand or interact with the other.
Example: the native man opposing the film maker, this again seems to be the authors own opinion of other traditional native people, those who will highlight how wrong it may be to support the tropes we are fighting so hard to disprove. Will native people benefit from another narrative that showcases alcoholism, abandoned children, and abused indigenous women? I find it funny that all the half white characters were raised by their white parents, what is this saying? What is the portrait of native men as drunken neglectful fathers, telling American reader?
Native Lit in general, often struggles with the stagnant character problem, they don't change, rather they exist to be a platform, to feed the non native audience more of what they are accustomed, the poor poor Indian story line. Where every character only exists to say what the author needs you to think. None of this is characterization, none of these people feel real or tell a story.
This plot line could've existed with half the cast to be honest, I only wish that editors were honest, and pushed native writers to be better. Rather they say: well I guess its good enough for an indigenous author. It should make $.
I want more as a native reader, I want to see characters that have agency, goals, dreams. I want to showcase a part of being native that til now has been ignored, other stories do this. I want younger readers to see themselves differently, as you do when you read a well structured narrative filled with realistic characters. It isn't too much to ask, is it?