The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker's dungeon design | Boss Keys

Boss Keys is an on-going research project to analyse the level design of the dungeons in The Legend of Zelda. This time, it's the turn of GameCube game The Wind Waker.

[JohnDAGuerra]

The Tower of the Gods was definitely linear on purpose- they establish right at the start that it's a giant tower that you need to get to the top of, so you just keep climbing and climbing. If there were bits where you went back down, it'd just be a very vertical dungeon, instead of a narratively driven ascent.

[batman]

I think Wind Waker is the best way to make linear dungeons work. Unlike most other Zelda games that are more linear, WW's linearity doesn't make it any less fun or enjoyable. I agree that it can be too easy at times, but I still think it's a very fun game with a lot of positives.

Also, you were playing the Wii U version - the Triforce quest should only take like, thirty minutes to an hour at most.

[dionderksen]

I enjoy this series, but it has made me realize that many people love zelda (and video games) for different reasons. I enjoy the idea of a truly open, exploration heavy dungeon. But in execution this often is much less exciting than when compared to "linear" dungeons. Nonetheless this is a thought provoking series, and I greatly appreciate your consistence stance on what you like about dungeons. Most youtube video's I watch about zelda's game design (Usually titled "Why I HATE Link to the Past", or "Twilight Princess THE WORST ZELDA GAME") is usually absurdly biased towards certain titles without objective justification.

[GMTK]

Hello! A quick update

My use of "linear" and "non-linear" has been a sticking point throughout Boss Keys. That's my fault - you've gotta be careful with language as it can really muddy your message

I've used it to mean two things:

1) Linear = Player must collect keys, open doors, and use items in a specific order. Non-linear = Player is given freedom to collect keys, open doors, and use items in an order of their choosing

2) Linear = Player moves from room to room in a direct path to the boss, never needing to return to a previous area. Non-linear = Player returns to previously-visited rooms with new items or after changing the dungeon layout.

The first use is legit. The second is confusing. So I will be changing to a new set of terms for the second use, in the next video. Right now I'm thinking single-layered and multi-layered dungeons. We'll see. Join me for Minish Cap to see!

[hadenplouffe]

For me the biggest thing that differentiates recent Zelda dungeons from the older ones is the growing emphasis on in-room puzzles as opposed to some sort of complex maze- the first two dungeons of Skyward Sword, for instance, are little more than a step by step progression towards the boss, however the individual rooms feature some pretty awesome puzzles and mechanics, it's just that the actual dungeons themselves aren't terribly interesting. But I do feel like overall there's an emphasis on this in-room exploration and changing different things about the dungeon, such as flooding the room in Skyview Temple, or when you get the beetle and use that to open up a variety of different things in the central room.
Obviously that isn't to say that it's a universal trend- something like the Sandship is an extremely complicated maze wherein you're continually changing the whole of the dungeon- but I do feel like overall the idea has become emphasis on the puzzles within a particular room rather than how the rooms are related to each other.

[timg]

I love these videos and respect the hell out of you for how in-depth and well-made they are, but I have to fundamentally disagree with your stance that extensive backtracking is what makes dungeons great. Still, excellent video.

[fihsy]

Love how these videos are made, though I don’t think the linearity is inherently bad. Backtracking is generally something I don’t enjoy in Zelda games so I appreciated this change

[bistromath]

You touch on two reasons I'd defend the dungeons in Wind Waker: optional items and puzzle motifs.

They didn't offer the same kind of challenge that previous Zelda dungeons did, if you only care about finishing the thing. That's not really the sort of game WW is, though. WW leans much more heavily on exploration of the overworld than anything else in the series that I've had the chance to play. This is because the audience they most wanted to capture was people interested in the setting. They knew that with this time-consuming sailing mechanic, they'd need to target people who might enjoy the peace rather than be bored by it, and that works best when you're fascinated with the places you're seeing. This is also the reason WW has more overt references to the busted, confusing mess of the Zelda timeline than anything that came before it.

The dungeon design is informed by this targeted approach. I didn't perceive them as particularly linear and was quite satisfied while exploring them, because those things weren't optional to me. A boomerang is a boomerang is a boomerang. I've picked one up a million times, I know I need it, but what's buried at the bottom of the ocean over there? I HAVE to know about that.

As for the puzzle motifs: they feel good and play into the "magical object" quality I talked about in the comments of the OoT and MM videos. They're clearly important to improving the design ethos of the series, and WW had the most developed yet. The dungeons in WW are so tightly focused on it that it reminds me of the kishotenketsu concept discussed in your SM3DW video.

The trouble is that it's quite difficult to present something in that manner without a fairly high degree of linearity. To do this in a non-linear fashion, careful choices must be made about which intermediate-level puzzles can be parallelized, and then you have to figure out how to work that into the dungeon spatially. It's important to remember that, for people interested in fully exploring the overworld, the dungeons have always primarily been teaching tools, even when they were trickier. They show you all the ways your new toy can help you get to stuff outside that you had to pass by before. With WW leaning so heavily on this, trying to put so much of the great adventure above ground for the people invested in the setting, it's easy to see why they chose to compress the dungeon experience. They aren't quite like traditional Zelda dungeons, but WW isn't a traditional Zelda game. If they're all you're looking at, they lose something compared to their predecessors. However, when taking the game as a whole, the dungeons perform their intended purpose very well.

[cuklabcusade]

8:00 i beg to differ. In wind waker there is a part in the mirror temple that you have to reflect sunlight off your shield onto a curtian to burn it and reveal a switch. This is way more clever than shooting a block of ice with a fire arrow. the sense of self discovery that you get from it is awesome

[DeadEye]

Wind Waker doesn't have as strong dungeon design as other Zelda games, but it's still one of my favorites for various other reasons. I loved sailing around, the artstyle is amazing and Link is very expressive, the combat is the best in the series (though the easier difficulty kinda makes it feel like a waste), and the confrontation with Ganondorf is probably my favorite ending in a Zelda game, on par with OoT.

I feel like a lot of people think because the dungeon design isn't as strong, then the game should be 0/10 and thrown in the garbage, and games aren't really that simple.

If I was to build a Zelda game out of the best parts of other Zelda games, I'd be plucking a good number of things from Wind Waker.

[portaltaker]

I am absolutely loving this series!!! I can't wait for skyward sword and twilight princess!!!

[Drifter]

I think more than anything this game is highlighting a split in the Zelda fanbase. I feel like what constitutes a dungeon having a "Zelda" feel now comes from to completely separate pools of origin. The people that started the series playing the earlier games grew up with an understanding that puzzles span the entirety of the dungeon (and brings in that idea of "non-linearity") whereas the people that started playing the later entries were exposed to more room oriented puzzles. In my opinion one is NOT better than the other and they serve the overall feel of each game in very different ways.
Despite what has been said here I do feel like Wind Waker is actually one of the more open Zelda games to date with the ability to sail and explore the map at your own pace. The fact the the outside world and the dungeons contrast so much in this way I feel is a very interesting design decision.
All in all it can't be forgotten that this series is focussing on trying to compare and contrast Dungeon experiences, and maybe the dungeons in this game out of context fair weakly against other entries in the series but like so many other people are saying there is soooo much more than just the mechanics and flow that goes into creating a quality experience.

Personally I love the story in Zelda but don't necessarily need "non-linearity" or deep exploration baked into my Dungeon experience, I prefer it to be an optional endeavour, but I know thats what I like personally and not what everyone else necessarily wants. Nintendo have given themselves a pretty tall order by continuously changing what Zelda means to newer generations. Must be pretty tough to attempt to serve so many masters especially as the series becomes more and more popular.

[Holacalaca]

I love the minish cap, can't wait for that episode, so many things you talked about in the gbc zeldas apply to minish cap

[auridisavan]

I'm quite late but Id still like to make this statement:
Wind Waker's Dungeons:
Easy? Yes
Straightforward? Yes
Simplistic? Yes
Fun? Yes
Engaging? Yes
Stylistically Awesome? Yes
*Unpopular Opinion Warning*
All in my top 10 Zelda Dungeons? Yes

[AndrewEdelblum]

Wow, you totally put my experience with Windwaker into words. I remember playing it back in high school and being somewhat disappointed with the temples. I couldn't explain why, especially because I had a few friends who absolutely swore by this game. Of course, Windwaker is still one of my favorite games in the franchise, but not because the dungeons are anything super satisfying, let alone that there are only four/five of them. I am particularly excited to hear what you have to say about Twilight Princess because those dungeons are what got me into LoZ post-Ocarina of Time.

[Larry]

Can I just say it was total bullshit you didn't win the GMA awards Mark, complete shambles.

[LearntheLore]

I have a completely different takeaway than you on this, I feel like The Wind Waker was the first time Zelda dungeons really got interesting, and the reason for this is the moment-to-moment puzzle/gameplay design is so much stronger than it was in previous entries' dungeons. Players tend not to experience levels as overarching experiences, but on the moment-to-moment, so even if the structures of Wind Waker's dungeons are uninteresting, the dungeons are still great and fun to explore because the things you get to do in each individual room are fun in and of themselves.

I also disagree that the low level of difficulty is a bad thing. The Wind Waker was designed to be accessible to new players, in fact that's one of the most important themes in its narrative: passing the torch on to the next generation. To that end, the simplified dungeon layouts are 100% successful in achieving this.

[LithmusEarth]

I've had you in my watch later list for 7 years. This is a great video. Finally got around to it. I love the clean map design you use.

[KookieKrusher]

Although you are correct in your assessment of linear and non-linear level design and the value that it can hold for a Zelda game, I think it's important to simultaneously understand that the simplicity and linearity of The Wind Waker's dungeons can, in fact, be a good thing.

The 2D games set a standard of difficult dungeons with complex puzzles and difficult boss fights, and it fit the framework that the games were trying to work in. A complex and rigorous adventure requires mental skill, and ALTTP and the Gameboy Zelda games followed this ideology and created fantastic games because, again, it fit the tone and framework of the games.

Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask saw a slight departure from this, given the transition to the third dimension, although the same core system applied. The Stone Tower Temple and The Water Temple (despite popular opinion) are, as you said, great examples of fantastic dungeons with interesting, complex systems put in place. These games keep within the framework of an "ideal" Zelda game, making a fantastic game in the process.

The Wind Waker marks what is, in my opinion, the biggest change in the Legend of Zelda's history as a franchise. The art style made the environment of the game more friendly and relaxing, in comparison to the more realistic and darker tones of the previous 3D games. Because of this shift in tone, the characters gained more complexity in their expression and the environments became richer in atmosphere. The story was more intertwined, and the characters had more development. It was, in many ways, a completely new game.

The dungeons had to change as well, however. The light-hearted atmosphere of the game required the gameplay to cater to its needs. The dungeons and puzzles were much simpler than they had ever been before because it fit the tone of the game. The game would not have made sense if it had had dungeons in the style of Majora's Mask or Link's Awakening.

But, still, your point remains. The dungeons are, indeed, not as complex or interesting as they have been in the past. The "ideal dungeon" isn't nearly as present as it is in other Zelda games.

I would like to propose that that isn't necessarily a bad thing, however. The Wind Waker is a different game than most other Zelda games, and perhaps that is a good thing.

[epistolariangamer]

While Wind Waker still is my favorite Zelda, your criticism is very valid, I also think WW is one of the easiest Zeldas. But that made me think about something and I'd like to hear your opinion on in a future episode: how could Nintendo (or any other developer) create a dungeon with a difficulty scale? I know the answer is the optional items, that advanced players can go after those and find a bigger challenge, but is there a way where the player chooses the "hard mode" and then the structure or the puzzles get harder?