Responding to the Claim that Trads are Toxic and Divisive

Since the release of Pope Francis’ recent moto proprio which severely restricts access to the Tridentine Mass or the Traditional Latin mass, there has been quite a bit of commentary about either the injustice or the necessity of this new arrangement.

I’ve already shared some of my own thoughts on it and so have others with a sympathetic view, but I I’ve also heard some, not the least of which is Pope Francis himself, express the need for this because of the toxic and dissenting elements within Traditional Catholicism that forced his hand for the sake of “unity”.

And of course, this is a valid concern. There are elements within Traditional Catholicism that promote disunity and disobedience, although I think the perception of such currents is highly overstated. I understand how people can develop that perception based on online interactions, but the internet tends to amplify more quarrelsome voices because controversy sells and the internet is dominated by whatever can hold our attention longest.

But, none the less, I do admit that you will encounter people in traditional communities at a Latin mass or a gathering of such people who can be hard to tolerate because of how assertive and even condescending they can be towards anything or anyone who deviates from their understanding of the faith.

A more recent example of this, for me, was when I rewatched a live stream I did on this topic last week and took a glance at the live chat replay. Frankly, I was a bit embarrassed by some of the comments that were appearing there.

And that forced me to confront this question: is this the kind of mentality that I want to encourage or attract? Because my channel has been shifting more and more traditional over time as I have done so personally. But sometimes I feel the need to take an inventory of how things are developing for me personally.

Which raises the question – why can traditionalists be so cantankerous, angry, and what some might call “toxic”? A comprehensive analysis of that question should offer a few explanations, but I’d like to focus on one that I haven’t heard discussed before.

Which is that traditionalists, for better or worse, strongly believe what they do and aren’t afraid to assert it. And this is actually a virtue but it appears to us to be rude or confrontational because modern decorum has impressed on us, unless we’re a “visible minority”, to never assert our beliefs or interests.

We’re supposed to be agnostic or at least, keep our strongly held opinions to ourselves – or if we must share them, do so in a somewhat self-deprecating way. We’re supposed to say things like, “this is my opinion, but it might not be right.”

GK Chesterton, I think, rightly said that this habit is entirely irrational. If you say that it might be wrong, you are saying that it is not your opinion. All you’re doing is reciting an opinion that is out there, but if you don’t actually believe it to be correct, then you are admitting that you don’t believe it, and therefore, that it is not your opinion at all.

The reason we say this is because of a weak-minded fear that we may have to account for our beliefs when they are challenged, so we use these kinds of wishy washy disclaimers as an escape route in case conflict arises.

In short, it’s because we lack fortitude to first, take a stand on an issue, and truly stand there. We’re afraid of the risks and responsibility. We’re afraid that we may actually have to do some research to know the truth of a thing that doesn’t come as easily as listening to the first bit of a podcast before we get distracted by something other trivial thing.

And when someone truly takes a stand on something and is unshakeable from that position, it feels like a confrontation. It directs a mirror on our own lack of fortitude so that we can see it for what it is – cowardice, indifference, and laziness.

The reason we have a tougher time encountering this kind of unshakeable confidence in mainstream Catholic parishes, is because there is a much larger rate of indifference and lukewarmness in those parishes.

I don’t mean to say that is the fault of those parishes necessarily, but when you are a big tent, you tend to attract a lot of everybody and unfortunately, most people today, in every walk of life, are just floating down the stream of indifference.

And it’s easy to mistake indifference for being laid back or “chill” when really it’s just laziness and apathy. And that should be a concern for Catholics because there’s this passage in Holy Scripture that says that God would prefer us to be either hot or cold. That what he hates most of all, is lukewarmness. He hates it so much that he uses the imagery of vomiting the lukewarm out.

[BrianHoldsworth]

I'm getting the impression that people have severely misunderstood the thesis of this video. I'm actually defending "trads" against this supposed stereotype by pointing out that this perception might have a lot more to do with the confidence that traditional Catholics have in their beliefs, which is often mistaken for combativeness, as opposed to the indifference that is common in mainstream Catholicism which is often mistaken for being laid back or easy-going.

[kerrickakinola]

This is an excellent video. Matt Fradd did a recent video on what he likes about the Traditional Latin Mass and a viewing commentator said, "There’s a difference between believing the TLM is superior, and believing that you are superior for attending the TLM." I think that sums it up. We can think something is better or superior, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily I'm "holier than thou" for attending it. We are all sinners, including me.

[michaela]

Ive been to 20 or so different churches in the last 2 years and the TLM is the only mass where people have welcomed me and invited me for coffee afterward.

[marklizama]

I’m a “trad, ” because I believe in and love, the good, the true, and the beautiful.

[ProximaCentauri]

I love TLM to be as normalized as Novus Ordo BUT this type of elitism from the "mad trads" isn't really helping in making that happen. This snobbish and "exclusivist" attitude was the same reason why I left the Church in my teens.

Catechism should be the first priority. Poor catechism is the very reason why the churches are hideous and the faith is dying. Without catechism and humilty, you'll just be a "hipster playing liturgies."

I hope the pope's letter contained these:
1. Catechize because catechism is what most Catholics lack (instead of doing cheesey gimmicks during mass).
2. Perform Novus Ordo PROPERLY.
3. Promote and preserve the Traditional Latin Mass and the other liturgies of the Church (Ambrosian. Mozarabic, Byzantine, Coptic, etc.)
4. Improve the quality of our seminaries (enough of the gimmick priests).
5. A New Crusade and a stronger Counter-Reformation.

[DewiiEsq]

Hey Brian, thanks for calling out your chat a bit. I noticed that too and was alarmed. You really have earned my profound respect by having the fortitude to call out your own supporters.

[andonedave]

I think the problem is mostly with the troublesome “Trads” (not the humble, charitable ones) it’s not their confidence that’s the problem. It’s the fruit of their confidence and supposed “true” faith: Anger, division, attacking good and holy people, pride, lack of mercy, lack of charity. If that’s “real” Catholicism, no thanks. That’s where many people like myself are coming from. And I lean heavily toward a more “traditional” expression of the faith myself. But not at the cost of charity. I’m sure being confronted with a confident Catholic can be off putting for lukewarm Catholics but for those of us who take things seriously, we don’t mind confidence as long as it’s tempered by charity and prudence.

[kinghoodofmousekind]

I met trads whose behaviour almost drove me to abandon the traditional movement; but I also agree there are a lot of folks who love to claim all of them are snobbish and unkind folks.
I'm relatively traditionalist, and I think we ought to preserve the great beauty and reverence of the old forms of the mass; what worries me is how fast many are ready to point the issues in the "traditions" camp and how instead they do not comb with the same attention the modernist encampment.

[SowerOfMustardSeed]

I’m a Catholic catechist for 20 years, been a Catholic for 40+ years. I’m also an amateur apologist. I like listening to your point of view, Brian.
But I’m a bit disappointed because I think you might have over simplified why some people who (I being one) adhere to all the teachings of the church regarding faith and morals, and who admire the value of traditions that would help us get closer to God, would still have issues with the so-called “trads”.

For me, it is primarily because many of these “trads” I’ve seen are acting with:

1. A sense of elitism. They behave or preach or “evangelize” without charity as if they just want to tell sinners they are wrong with the sole purpose of boasting but not from an angle of love.

2. Open disrespect or even disdain for the Pope. Their word choice is divisive and their strong opinions are silo’ed, to a point that is leading Catholics away from the Church and/or implicitly preaching that it is ok to doubt and disobey the Magisterium (be it accidental or intentional)

3. Lies. Some spread the lie that there could be Pope who are heretics - meaning teaching heresies in official capacity (e.g., ex cathedra). They cited Pope Honorius of course. But they intentionally twisted the story of Pope Honorius to suit their agenda that popes can be heretics; ergo insinuating that Pope Francis can be and very much would be or is already a heretic. Even more so, many allude that Pope Francis is an Anti-Christ or even THE Anti-Christ. A pope can’t be an Anti-Christ. Refer to Jimmy Akin’s video on the subject matter. And Pope Honorius isn’t a heretic nor he taught heresies. See Catholic Answers article on Pope Honorius.

4. Chauvinistic. Quite a few hold the view that nuns or women in general should just run orphanages, schools, cook, knit, and pray and should have no place in preaching (general preaching and I’m not referring to delivering homily in mass) and providing spiritual guidance. That is just ridiculous. The greatest saint is a woman. The apostle to the apostles is a woman.
Et cetera…

In other words, many trads I met believe/act/think very un-Christian like.

I am not saying all trads are like this. Some are very pious and are faithful to the Church. But some really loud and prominent ones who seemingly are the most influential are the speaking voice of the trads. If you r not these trads that I have a problem with, I urge you to speak up against these divisive trads with disapproval. Otherwise, your silence essentially means that you r condoning these toxic behaviour and opinions.

That’s why when people asked me whether I’m a conservative/traditional Catholic (because I profess to all teachings of the Church on faith and morals), I answered them “I’m just Catholic, neither traditional nor liberal. Just Catholic following Christ and His Church.” A real Catholic does not need to feel they belong to the traditional camp or the liberal camp. Being Catholic is being Catholic. Period.

[oambitiousone]

By coincidence I attended my first Latin mass one week before this controversy. Although I was lost several times, despite having a missal, I was struck at the reverence before, during, and after the mass. The choir was ethereal. I had also never witnessed communion received solely kneeling at a rail before. I attend my parish because it is in my community, but I will return once a month to the Latin mass to learn it, increasingly be able to participate.

[buddy]

I'm a Trad guy, I dont believe NO is bad, just that if the real presence is there, then let us give the best glory we can give to God

[ralph]

I have read and observed the aggressive vile language of many "traditionalists" and it shouldn't be downplayed or swept under the rug. Lord have mercy.

[wilhufftarkin]

One problem I have noticed is that trads and "liberal Catholics" both refuse to acknowledge the fact that they have completely different premises and therefore aren't able to communicate with each other. For example, trads think tough love is important, while the other camp interprets tough love as hatred. If the exact same thing is called love by one side and hatred by the other side, it's impossible for them to communicate and understand each other.

[Fiona]

And yes I'm a trad, I wear my veil. I wear it because I should be humble in His presence. I try to wear modest clothes at church out of respect and I love incense and altar servers and biblical songs. I love that we end mass by praying the St Michael prayer. I thank God he led me to move to this parish, I prayed for it and He indeed delivered a good parish for us.

[jonathankoziol]

I grew up without understanding why we do what we do in Mass. 12 years of Luke warm Catholic schooling and a church in my wife’s town that was so non traditional that we didn’t even have a cross in the opening procession. It wasn’t that distinguishable from a Protestant service.

[shawnandbethgallic]

I'm put off by Trads who tell me they go to the real mass....I'm a daily mass go-er, father of 9 children and love the church. I am very well cathecized but, man, just go away. That being said, I love them anyway. I have no issue with TLM and can see the food that it is doing. Just step off the high horse for a minute!

[JohnAlbertRigali]

I began my conversion 20 years ago. I received my sacraments 11 years ago. I began my transition to traditional Catholicism about 4 years ago. Thinking back on all of my interactions with other Catholics, I have to say that *all* of the cantankerous others have been - they were nice until they encountered confident orthodox Catholics, at which points they melted down and bashed those confident orthodox Catholics for their “disunity”. I recently discovered that several unidentified parishioners at my previous modernist parish have branded me a “rebel” and warn others away from me; I’m happy - not cantankerous - to be scorned for the sake of His truth.

However, I admit that I get cantankerous with my comments here on YouTube, where almost no one personally knows me. 😅

[joshuacooley]

Hi Brian,

I going to try and write a diplomatic post, but I'm too tired.

I'm conservative and traditional. Despite being Catholic for only about 8 years, I grew up among conservative Christians my entire life. I have been active in conservative politics, etc.

You will be hard pressed to find a more anti-modern, anti-liberal person than me.

Conservatives can sometimes come off as harsh unintentionally because they are assertive etc, as you say. However, the simple fact is that a lot of conservatives (and Trads) are simply self-righteous jerks and hypocrites.

One of the things I realized in my experience among conservatives (before ever becoming Catholic) was that conservatism attracts its own unique set of sins and dysfunctions. Liberalism has its set as well, but many conservatives think that being ideologically right equates to being morally good and holy. This is not the case at all. Conservatives, on the whole, are just as messed up as liberals, they are just usually messed up in different ways.

For one thing, focusing on things like traditional Liturgy and Sacraments is often a great way to avoid looking at yourself in the mirror of God's Truth. It's much easier to feel good about yourself because you go to Latin Mass, than it is to actually embrace humility, obedience, and charity.
Trads are prone to forgetting that even though the Sacraments always provide Grace by the very fact that they have been performed, that grace is not fruitful without cooperation on the part of the recipient. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian life, but it will do nothing for you if you don't willfully cooperate with Grace God gives.

I have seen trads lie, slander, deliberately ignore truths that don't fit with their preferred agenda, condemn people to hell over political differences... and then claim that they were doing all that in charity because telling the Truth is charity.

I have seen trads sing the praises of saints who were opposed by corrupt or mistaken Church authorities, and responded with meek obedience, and then seen them turn around and slander and violently attack their bishop or priest. All the while feeling justified because "they are just telling the truth" and "clarity is charity".

One of the things I find the most sadly humorous is the idea that conservatives and trads aren't divisive. Again, I've seen good traditional Catholics tear each other apart, gossip, and back-bite each other, over changing the furniture arrangement in the Narthex. Every time there has been even a small change at our Parish, there have been people so upset about it that they either left the parish, or engaged in gossip and attacking people over it.

It would only be a mild exaggeration to say that a good definition of a conservative or a traditionalist is a person who upon finding a fellow who's beliefs match his own 99%, will get angry and condemn that person over the 1% difference.

Back when I was a protestant some of us actually joked about this because we recognized our own tendency to be divisive and tear fellowships apart over small details etc. In fact, one of the things that started my journey back to the Traditional Faith is that the Church I was part of split over the fact that some people were tired of the minister preaching about the same topics all the time. There wasn't even a theological difference, we literally believed 100% the same doctrines, it was purely over they were unhappy with the sermon topics not being diverse enough.

One of the things that has stood out to me about many of the Trads I've seen, is how ironically protestant they are in their attitudes.

In closing, Scott Hahn, who is Opus Dei and attends the Traditional Latin Mass, has said on a few occasions that many of the 'Rad Trads' he has encountered seemed to be "mad Trads" but he wants to be a "glad Trad". This is really what we need. The Tradition is Truth, and we can't live without it. However, Traditionalists are often the biggest enemy and impediment to the real Truth of Tradition. If you are not transformed by the Tradition, then there is no point in it.

I expect evil people to do evil things. I expect liberals to be corrupt and to push false teachings. They are, at best, deceived so what else can they do? As a result I don't often waste my time focusing on what they are doing.
By comparison I often come down harder on conservatives and traditionalists because they claim to have the Truth, and the Tradition is True. If they really had it, and really believed it, and lived it, they would not be what they often are. I expect people who have the truth to be better and so I am often disappointed with the reality.

I'm all fort the Traditional Latin Mass, but on a certain level, I don't care how traditional you are, or what your views on Mass are, if you can't love your neighbor.

[jayweston]

Thank you for your words and thoughts. We learned in our traditional mass last Sunday that our newly installed Bishop would continue with the TLM. There was a visible, emotional, respectful, and thankful sigh of relief. Our pastor then gave us the very same wise words that you provide at the end of your thoughts and there many heads nodding in agreement. I will also say that your commentary on lukewarmness and being cold or hot, is absolutely correct. I started following your channel only recently and I appreciate your calm, reasoned catechetical responses.

[Neekohlass]

I'm recently coming back to the Church and was predisposed to the traditional side of things. However, I came to a church that one side has the "traditional" Catholicism railing against the Pope as he reaches out to communities for their conversion while some like Bishop Strictland literally quote letters to huge groups applying Rev 17 to Pope Francis, characterizing him as an antipope. Then on the other side you have the Synodal Way in Germany railing against Pope Francis and attempting to push full acceptance of sins and conforming to the world. I feel for a Pope trying to keep Catholicism united in the face of both these perspectives yelling so loudly as to shake the Church foundations.

It has made it stressful coming back, even my father has been looking into Orthodoxy for years, as I found when I told him I want to come back. He does not like Francis, while as someone reforming from homosexuality and coming back to the Church I love the Pope, especially after an initial bad feeling to him because I saw him as endorsing a sin I struggled with resisting. Then I looked into it, prayed for him, and realized he is actually the exact Pope I needed who is against homosexual acts while TRULY loving people struggling with it-something I never saw in the church when I left because of loud voices blaming those struggling with homosexuality for the abuse scandal.

There is actually believing in Catholic teaching, then there is someone so predisposed to "tradition" and Latin mass and pride to the point of ignoring facts of Vatican I etc. All that said I love going to Latin mass, but I see the devil in this campaign to delegitimize and have bad feeling toward Pope Francis. You have traditionalists harsh to Francis, while clapping for "traditional" Bishops in Uganda who want to jail someone for succumbing to sin for LIFE. I see that as twisted.