In Defense of Shipping, or, Are Kirk and Spock Gay or What?

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▶Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
2:45 - Spirk
8:38 - TNG ships/DaForge
12:17 - DS9 ships/Garashir
17:26 - Voyager and Enterprise ships
18:56 - Discovery and Picard ships
20:07 - Anthony Mackie's comments in Variety
21:46 - Conclusion: In Defense of Shipping

Listen to the Late Seating podcast:

[nickjeffery]

I don't know why you went with the weird-sounding "Spirk", when you could have gone with Kock...

[shannonigans]

One slight note:

Spirk didn't grow JUST from the LGBT+ community looking for non-hetero. A lot of it was pioneered by hetero women who wanted to add some romance into the series but felt limited by the lack of well-rounded female characters (especially among kirks "conquests"). Instead of making OC's (100% mine do not steal) they started extrapolating one of the only deep emotional relationships on-screen. It's basically the precursor to YAOI.

These are the women that launched the letter-writing campaign to get it picked up again. and get the movies made They're the ones that published zines and organized fan conventions.

Without shippers - trek wouldn't exist at all. Hell, I also love pointing out to sexist asshats that it only exists because of women PERIOD - Lucielle Ball and Whoopie Goldberg were instrumental in keeping ToS and TNG on air.

[robinpayne]

How did you resist reminding us that Data is "fully functional" and "programmed in multiple techniques"?

[FukugawaUtake]

What about 'Shore Leave' when Kirk thinks its Spock giving him a back massage? He seemed disappointed when he found out it was a Yeoman.

[rosswieloch]

When DS9 was originally on the air I didn't notice any undertones between Bashir and Garak. Admittedly I was a lot younger and didn't notice anything like that on any show. Now that I'm older and have come out myself I'll watch a Bashir/Garak episode and I'm practically yelling at the screen
"Bashir stop chasing after Dax. It's creepy and she isn't into you. Go after Garak he obviously wants you."

[StevenSmyth]

I’ve been a Trekkie since the beginning. We used to call Spirk “slash fiction” for Kirk/Spock. How soon we forget.

[shawnhardee]

Wait… so Kirk faked his “little death”. I thought Spock had no ego to bruise.

[prettyhuman]

Talking about Anthony Mackie's awkward response (20:07) reminded me of just how beautifully Mark Hamill addressed the question wether Star Wars' Luke is gay. Something like: "It's meant to be interpreted by you. If you think he's gay, OF COURSE he's gay!" Hell yes.

[JalapenoOverdrive]

Wouldn't this specifically be Starshipping? :P

Certainly that would have been an Enterprising title.

[kwa]

Thank you for such a sweet take on shipping culture. A lot of people who comment get fixated on the more extreme aspects of it (transgressive ships or toxic shipping wars) but it's nice to see a reviewer recognize that shipping can be a sweet way to enjoy characters in LGBTQ relationships. As a lesbian, I like to imagine parallel worlds where my favorite characters share my orientation. Not canon and I don't need the creators to bend to my wishes, but it makes the shows and stories more enjoyable for me.

[spacegibbon]

I'm not sure Geordie was ever interested in women for real. The most significant "romantic" attachment he's shown to have in the show is with Leah Brahms - a celebrity (as far as Geordie is concerned) who he idolizes and treats as if he knows personally. She's like his Lady Gaga/Liza Minelli/Bea Arthur.

[acerumble]

I'm giving Mackie the benefit of the doubt that, as an actor, he believes that people are "misinterpreting" his intended performance of a man in a non-sexual but still intimate friendship with another man. What he seems to be failing to see is that it doesn't matter what the original intent was, it's OK for people to see something other than what the creators imagined with their fictional characters. In our sister sci-fi franchise, Mark Hamill has famously said that he didn't intentionally play Luke Skywalker as a gay or queer character, but if that's how some fans envision him, then of course he is. Steve's simple observation that fictional characters are not actual people, they can be whatever someone wants or needs for them to be, is a lesson that would singlehandedly detoxify the fandom if everyone were capable of taking it to heart.

[thedalaipython]

I’m a little surprised that you didn’t mention the entire plot of Star Trek III: The Search for Spock as being supporting evidence of Kirk/Spock shipping. Granted, Kirk needed to help McCoy regain his sanity too, but the lengths to which Kirk was willing to go to recover Spock’s corpse are well beyond friendship. Also, the part at the end when Sarek asks Kirk about the cost of recovering Spock being his career and the life of his son, Kirk’s reply was, “If I hadn’t tried, the cost would have been my soul.” The delivery of that line shows that his bond with Spock is even stronger than the bond of father and son. That’s true love right there…

[kujasan]

shipping makes perfect sense. except on the ds9, where stationing would be better.

...i'll show myself out

[Bubblesthewitch]

Wait is no one else shipping Tilly and Michael? Like they are every lesbian couple I know, and I personally find it hilarious that the show keeps trying to make Michael straight. (Even though every character in Star Trek is bi until proven otherwise, come at me)

[orvilpym]

Okay... "you can't put the lube back in the tube" just killed me! 😂 Awesome episode! Thanks a lot, Steve!

[Theoddert]

There's also the fact that canonically, Cardasian necks are erroneous zones, like Ferengi ears. Meaning that when Garak stood up to leave and gave the "So glad to have made such an interesting new friend today", grabbing Juline's shoulders, he was doing the Cardasian equivalent of grabbing his ass

[cmbeadle]

I never non-ironically shipped until i saw that episode from Voyager where Tom Paris and Harry Kim are in jail together. It's literally the most homoerotic thing I've seen in the entire franchise.

[arklestudios]

I'm reminded of something SF Debris said about Voyager re: how the last-minute pairing of Seven and Chakotay happened. Paraphrasing from memory here, but;

"The three big Voyager ships at the time were Janeway/Seven, Janeway/Chakotay, and Seven of Nine/The EMH. I'm pretty sure the writers got together one day and went 'Okay, what can we do to piss off all three groups at once?'"

[beckfink]

"DS9 is like a key party attended exclusively by coked-up swingers who hate each other" is the most accurate description of that shipping community I have ever heard. Magnificent! also, I've got a degree in lit analysis and I love bringing that into my fandoms. Intention only goes so far when faced with interpritation, and academic papers have been written on contextualizing less than what is given in some Star Trek ships. All I'm saying is if I can convince an academic journal to publish a paper on multiple layered meanings and interpretations of the word "strange" in line 8 of some poem about a woman Zeus abused, then you can ship whoever you god damn want. Any textual evidence is evidence enough, anything can be considered a valid interpriation! SPRIK FOR LIFE!