Free Market Fairness - John Tomasi

Can libertarians care about social justice? Challenging those on both the left and the right, political philosopher John Tomasi presents a new hybrid theory of liberal justice which is committed to both limited government and the material betterment of the poor.

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[SZalewski]

I'm no Objectivist fan, but all too often I see people misrepresent what "selfishness" means in Rand's philosophy. It does not mean greed or self-centeredness, it means -rational- self-interest, and much of the time it is in our rational self-interest to help other people. What Objectivism sees as evil is -compulsory- compassion/altruism, it does not say it is evil to genuinely desire to help others if that is what brings you satisfaction.

[aycardus]

To begin with, selfishness, in Ayn Rand's understanding, is necessarily rational selfishness. Which means that it is in my long-term interest to lead a life of good morality, honesty and integrity. She does not say that the poor deserve to die, neither does she say that the rich deserve unmediated power. What she says is that each individual, rich or poor, is an end in himself and that it is morally evil to use force on anybody - rich or poor - to exploit them or their property.

[tlowan]

Tomasi correctly points out the false dichotomy of left vs. right thinking. Whether one looks at communist or capitalist systemic failures, it's clear that neither system is effective. I think that Tomasi is moving deck chairs on the icebreaker here, however. We need a more fundamental re-think, starting with a real questioning of what community is, and why we need to think more clearly about its importance, and how we can more effectively use our social nature to improve our social structure.

[matthewharris]

Is this new? "Justice as Fairness" is John Rawls. Did he omit that or did it get cut?

[tlowan]

I appreciate Tomasi's pointing out that the fundamental anchoring of libertarian thought is the "natural state" of mankind.
There's a fundamental flaw here in that, as a species, we are constructed as a social animal.
We find meaning, purpose and value in our relationship to others as much as we find these things in our ability to control our destiny.
The POINT of society is that we NOT be standing alone, naked in the jungle; that we band together to create a safer, better life together.

[tlowan]

I think Tomasi also errs here in his assumption that economic self-determination is the driving factor in human need. I believe that humans have a fundamental need for survival, and a need for self-determination, but these needs only look like economic self-determination when we assume that the individual is in a constant fight for survival, and that money is the only thing that will save him. Humans are much more complex than this (see almost all current biological and neurological science).

[artgoat]

In the Randian philosophy, where does the idea of the Public Commons fit in? What appears as "compulsory compassion" in one context is actually a profit opportunity for a private enterprise in another perspective, and some people have become very wealthy working in the area of the public commons. But those commons will not exist if the principle goal of every person is their self-interest (expecting self-interest to be "enlightened" is naive), unless compelled. Vaccines are a great example.

[DimmedDiamond]

The government is the people. Better to further democratise it instead of tearing it down, and allowing few powerful actors ruling society. Better to have the government controlling actors, than an actor controlling the government.

[EclecticSceptic]

'Libertarianism' is borrowing the moral appeal of anarchism, affixing capitalism to it, and ignoring the glaring incongruity.

[recklessroges]

Rehashing the veil of ignorance and then mistaking the known "middle-class separation leading to selfishness" as some natural law.

[InTheEndIWasRight]

So where did you get that idea of libertarianism, MSNBC? Have you even read anything from libertarians, Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, ect? The state and the political class in cooperation with those who have barriers to entry in markets are the ones that take the wealth from all the productive individuals. The state produces nothing, all it does is take. Most people I would gather have a rational self interest and wish to help others as well, but it should be voluntary. If you just supported

[blueelectricsmoke]

One of the better talks about how to remedy the faults of modern libertarianism. The fact that guys like Tomasi, Zwolinski, and Vallier have been so attacked or ignored in the general libertarian discourse is a worrying trend.

[DustinSmith]

Every heard of the tragedy of the commons concept? I find that any group of people develop set of norms by which they expect each other to act. Without them the group spends most of its energy ripping its self apart - as seen by new groups who have not yet established norms that limit the range of accept behavior. As the size of the group increases, these rules must become increasingly formal. Ecological damage for example is the result of an unbound free market.

[iNizaria]

I'm glad RSA brings both sides together and give balanced discussions. I thought RSA was biased towards the left, until I saw this video^^

[andygray]

Agreed, but it's amazing how the new right, the T-Partiers and the Paulbots have adopted her as their mentor and saviour. I recently watched a CNN interview with the head of Exon mobile who claimed his favourite book was 'Atlas Shrugged', he said this as if seeking approval from the economist interviewing him, he also said lots of his friends were reading AR too...

[slyder]

That quote, "people who talk in metaphors should shampoo my crotch." was not by Aristotle. It was spoken by Jack Nicholson playing Melvin Udall in "As Good As It Gets". But still a fitting quote.

[PederPadde]

Spot on, andygray! Rand designed the perfect "philosophy" for sociopaths.

[Svetlozarov]

It's easy to be altruistic with other peoples money. Has the new rise wealth in India and China been created by charity? No, by selfishness and greed. It's the same case with the West. The government welfare has created a permanent underclass that will be squished by the debt crisis like a frog by a tank. Where has this society been tested?

[rickysouth]

So would everyone not just leach of the production of others as it would be free property. until the producers stop producing and there is nothing left to leach.

[EclecticSceptic]

Holy shit, he actually just did that!