MESA: Mark IIC+ vs Mark VII

The Mark VII is in Mark IV mode, as I feel it’s closer to the C+ sound.

Gibson Les Paul with Custombuckers
Mesa Boogie Mark VII
Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+ DRG
Suhr RL
OH Bogner 4x12 with Vintage 30s

[mikemunro]

There’s a certain lo-fi quality and rawness about the old Mark IIC that just makes it an absolute ball tearer.

[scarem]

They both sound amazing and would be happy with either amp! Great demo!

[basementriffs]

These sound incredibly close. VII sounded a smidgen more compressed or muddy at times, while the IIC+ was a touch more open with more clarity. But that difference was so miniscule it could be due to anything from a different instrument cable to a millimeter shift in the mic. For all intents and purposes they sound pretty much the same. That said, I really wish Mesa would do a simple single channel IIC+ reissue with the same aesthetic as the original (similar to the Kingsnake). It's just a great looking amp and I much prefer the old mkI - mkIV aesthetic over the mkV-VII look.

[guitaristcomposer]

The VII has an upper-mid thing going on, which is how I remember my Mark III (red stripe) to sound in comparison to the IIc+. Kind of makes sense- they were aiming to reproduce the IIc+ lead channel with the Mark III, but with a different type of circuit board (if I'm not mistaken). However, the VII (and I did play one in person in a GC store) did seem to have more of a liquidy, syrupy thing going on than the Mark III did, which is more like a IIc+.

[alessandroqueri]

Turn up the bass knob on the VII just a little and it would give it more low mids to match the old one. I find that I can dial up the bass knob further with the JP and the VII and still sound nice and tight unlike the classic Marks.

Loving the comparos!

[LP_Freak]

Great job getting them to sound so similar Blake

[pipespeeps]

the 2c+ just sounds like the perfect metal amp

[robvoyles]

I have 5 of mark series amps, Green stripe, Red stripe, Blue Stripe and a a IIC+.. if they were vastly different they wouldn't have just swiped each version with just a magic marker swipe or a black dot or a + sign. The big difference in the IIC+ and the Mark III was the third channel. Mesa got noticeably different with the Mesa badging vs the Boogie badges. The Rectifier series, The lone star, Road King, Nomad, etc came later and did sound different... The stiletto was probably the most different being EL34 based shooting toward the Marshall tone. Even my newer Mark 5 EL84 based amp sits in my studio with the older mark III'S and IIC+ it too sounds really close even all these years later with totally different power section/ tubes. The petrucci amp is a modern Mark amp and you can line up all the Mark series amps and NO one in the audience would ever know the difference and most guitar players blind folded couldn't pick them out one from the other especially with the transparent EVM 12L black shadow speaker or an MC-90 black shadow. The IIC+ landed production in the right time to become the flagship vintage boogie. Thats when 80's music was huge and that amp was produced at the right time for the players who made it famous. it didn't make them famous. I would argue a Mark III purple, red, blue or green stripe Mark III could have been used by the players who made the IIC+ famous and those albums and concerts wouldn't have sounded any different. They just weren't available at the time those bands recorded those albums. They stopped the IIC+ when the mark III came into production. They stopped the III when the Mark IV started and so on....they are all great amps and tonally are the same. Most of those bands stopped playing the IIC+ and went to the mark III when it came out because the sound was basically the same but the 3 had a third channel, everyone loved that.

[bllyfen]

Man I like VII better, it just sounds so much clearer. Such a beast of an amp

[frostfieldjames]

The IIC+ is warmer and more balanced. Just so well glued together. The VII sounds nice but there seem to be a couple of weird freqs that are either slightly scooped or boosted. Less balanced. Very very slight

[StevenH-yl]

Would love to hear you compare the Mark II to the Neural Dsp amp sim. For some reason I just can’t get these tones with the plugin.

[HiFiWright]

I feel like the VII or V for that matter simply vary from the originals probably because of the passive components that are used.
Forget the transformer, given it is the same type & voltage/current rating that was used in the original IIC+. Transformer manufacturing back then had less precise tolerances so from unit to unit wouldve been more likely for sound differences, again- given that its rated the same.

If not then that contributes to dynamic and transient differences.

However, I work on audio components for 2 channel HiFi home audio daily and I distinctly hear what sounds like some polypropylene capacitors being used in the signal path where mylar capacitors wouldve been. I'm certain of it, matter of fact (you get use to the nuances when soldering both daily in crossovers/power amps etc.

I know boogie liked orange drops and CDE (sprague back then) have both mylar & polypropylene film & foils which sound totally different given signal is being coupled through them.
The thing is, the PP caps are much more popular nowadays because PP is technically a better dielectric as far as DF and DA are concerned, but it also doesnt possess the damping benefits of mylar nor mylars temp coefficient (good or bad thing depending on how its used.)
With mylar, as temp goes up, low frequencies rise while high frequencies roll off due to dissipation. Subjectively, I also prefer mylars midband rendering (smoother and pleasantly bumped a smidge) but I'm a lone wolf in HiFi land because people will scream that I shouldnt like a capacitor that doesnt provide the air up top for details in that range but I respond by saying that "Well I don't like a cap that is made for RF frequencies and gladly passes all of them, ripple/oscillation and the whole rest of the crew, undamped and also one that screams at me simultaneously!"
Haha + I can add a bypass small value PP for the air without the BS.

Now, lets not even talk about the resistor differences I'm 100% sure the new Mark's have 😅
Point being, I'd say with all but certainty I could easily make the two amps indistinguishable, aside from maybe a few differences in where the sliders/knobs land etc.
But, no, EQ tweaking will NOT resolve the difference. Physics says no without curcuit component selection matching. Reason why they dont do that, I would imagine, to begin with is that some of those components are now made in smaller batches which drives up costs and reduces availability for bulk. But it certainly can be done & probably quite more easily than discussed by guitar players who only know basic conponent theory at best.

[donkost]

Great comparison- I have to give the nudge to the old school original. But I’m biased, bought a III blue stripe brand new in ‘88. Still have it, still in mint shape. So far I haven’t noticed any cap degradation but it will have to happen at some point. Fender cleans to liquid gain leads.

[pz]

one guy comparing them in YT said that in recording they may sound similar but in person there is big difference - original IIC+ sounds better. Did you notice such difference hearing both in person?

[SluggerStark]

Sounds awesome Blake! Tone wise, they sound almost identical. How close do they feel/respond to play though? I could dial my old Mk5 to sound pretty close as well, but it never had the feel of the older Marks.

[alimustafa]

Loved the comparison. Can you remember which specific IR file you used here from the Bogner pack? Smth like the OH 412 BOG-ST V30 OH1F-04?

[emilegc]

Great comparison. How high was the presence on the IIC+?

[moisttowelette]

Definitely prefer the low mid content the 2c+ gives but, like with all mark comparisons, they're very close.

[francescobaraldi]

Pure Nickelback sound 😊 both are great, but IIc… better for me

[labyrinthzero]

Do you hear what nice rounded high frequencies Mark2 has and what poisonous acidic upper frequencies Mark7 has?