Mike Israetel Is WRONG About Starting Strength

Starting Strength Coach Grant Broggi reacts to a clip of Mike Israetel @RenaissancePeriodization on Dave Tate's Table Talk Podcast @eliteftsofficial where Mike discusses his problem with the linear progression, such as the one found in the Starting Strength Program.

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[neomonkey]

Mike Israetel is being disingenuous here because he's certainly not stupid. OBVIOUSLY, Starting Strength's novice linear progression is programmed differently from an intermediate progression, etc. That's precisely why they wrote more books.

[shoeyxc]

He wasn’t critiquing starting strength, he was critiquing the downfalls of each type of training style and just used SS as an example of a linear program because it is well known. If you would have posted the next 20 minutes of the conversation he says that what linear programs get right is that you have to increase the stress over time, but especially for advanced lifters you can’t go in week in and week out just keep adding weight to the same exercises.

[Abraham_Kist-Okazaki]

WOW! Finally some honesty. Starting Strength, to use your words, is all about "getting the low-hanging fruit."

[JC-ytpm]

I used Starting Strength for about 18 months I did what Rippatoe said and built up and cut the fat later I am amazed at how well it worked. I hurt so much less.

[peeweesermon]

What's brilliant about Starting Strength is that after the NLP gains run out, you simply move to 1 level of complexity greater than the NLP and continue making progress. Vs the majority of other programs where you go from an NLP to 10 levels of complexity greater.

What happens when the lifter stops being able to add 5lbs a workout is the lifter goes to adding 5lbs every 2 workouts, or 5 lbs a week. Instead of adding 5lbs every 6 months like most overperiodized programs.

Then again, if you're in the business of selling overperiodized programming templates, of course you try to minimize the efficacy of something like Starting Strength, because it would put your nonsense out of business.

[BluegillGreg]

I ran Starting Strength when I bought a barbell and rack 6 or 7 years ago. The book is great and taught me a lot. I did progress linearly. The program we used when I started lifting over 50 years ago was also simple: two sets of six on clean & press, bp, row, fore & aft squat, and chin ups. progress reps to 12, then reduce reps to 6 and add 5 pounds. It starts off more complete instead of waiting to add rows and chin ups, but it's only 10 sets per workout instead of 9, so it's similarly recoverable. The progression pattern is dead simple, easy for beginners. My Dad got this program when he bought his barbells back in 1946, I think the book was written in 1937 or so, my brother and I used it starting in 1970 or 71. Still "works good!" It progresses more slowly but goes much further than single linear.

[johnnykruger]

I think Grant just gave the best explanation of what Starting Strength is I’ve ever heard 😂

[drunknnirish]

What happens when I cant add 5lbs?? You get the joy of learning what the four day split is.

[rickysilver]

Couple of counterpoints/ clarifications - I've ran the NLP multiple times, coming off injury/coaching 6 days/week in the winter there's no point in doing anything other than NLP for a while. If you want to run SS, I would recommend reading/understanding PP (grey book) as the finer details are what makes NLP work a hell of a lot better. Moving from phase 1 to 2 to 3 at the right time is crucial. Trying to grind out a little extra progress before adding the clean, or adding the chins/back extensions, light squat day mid-week, or back off sets (which rip denies putting in the program, proof Andy wrote the grey book) is what gives SS a bad rap. There is value in grinding out reps to learn how to work hard, but repeatedly doing it is what causes burnout and stalled progress. My 2c. The SS community likes to delay changes in programming, but I think in many cases it makes more sense to change programming to avoid stalls and burnouts. If someone burns out on the program and the response is to keep grinding out reps, they'll just leave the system.

[nadream_nadrm]

I used to watch a lot of Dr. Mike, but he kind of gets lost in a lot of technical terminology when the general population should be the target audience. I switched from legs, push and pull and bodybuilding all together because of learning about Olympic Weightlifting and listening to Coach Mark Rippatoe. Rippatoe is a character of a human but the most important thing he has ever done is popularized and emphasized, simple FOOLPROOF compound strength training. I cannot imagine, continuing to do 8-12 reps in ascending weights with risky types of jumps in Gyms with no smaller weights than 5 kg, and emphasizing muscle groups too much. Compound barbell training actually helped me appreciate my health, sleep, diet, and form to have a healthier lasting impact. For beginners, the general population, elderly, untrained, uneducated, risky/dangerous joint damage to knees, wrists, and rotator cuffs to name a few are awaiting those who train coachless or programless... Starting strength is the way to go to guys like me who thought high bar squats and destroying my hamstrings on leg curls once a week was progress. Squat, press, bench and pull. Simple, idiot-proof and to finally disagree again with Dr. Mike, works for beginners.

[Gilamang]

When you listen to Rip, it seems like he wants people to stay on the LP for a pretty significant amount of time. My experience with this was that there was a ton of fatigue buildup and some nagging tweaks and soreness that kept compounding. I was think Rip pushes people to really eat a lot to address recovery, but his prescription seems to produce a lot of fat gain. It’s probably a trade off, but not one I think is worthwhile after

[RockyP-xwrd]

These guys all hate on SS because of how simple and effective it is for novices and they get hooked. Like grant said, there is an entire book on programming that is not the blue book. People seem to forget about this. The Novice Linear Progression is just the first chapter of a Starting strength lifting career.

[CarlYota]

The bad thing about SS, at least it was this way ten years ago, was that the community basically spread the sentiment that all men should weigh 200 lbs and squat 315 before ending novice progression. This screwed a lot of us young naive guys up. Thankfully the guys at barbell medicine set us straight.

As long as SS now spreads the message that novice progression lasts 3 to 6 months and you get what you get and move on then it’s fine.

[catedoge]

My program progression is 5x5, 3x5, then program hopping until i find one that works for me and I change it now it's personal to my training.

[NorthernIrelandConflictVideos]

Dr mike talks crap, says train 6 days a week, next upload he says train 10 sets, then 5 sets ect, he just makes things up, as all these YT PTs want to leave a mark no matter what rubbish it is, NEVER FOLLOW MIKES ADVICE.

[LordoftheSith]

Why listen to the criticisms of enhanced lifting slaves? SS is for 6 months tops and then you start moving your lifts to intermediate programming as each one sputters out. It doesn’t need to be complicated

[curtjohnson]

Generally, the novice period ends at about 12 months, sometimes slightly longer. Dr. Mike’s point is a question that wasn’t answered by this content provider: what do you do when adding 5 lbs. to the bar is no longer sustainable? The argument here is that Starting Strength is only for newbies, so why ask the question about what to do next? A little too simple-minded for me. If you want something better beyond he newbie phase, try “The Barbell Prescription” by Jonathan Sullivan. He wrote this book under an agreement with Mark Rippetoe, the originator of Starting Strength and it advances beyond the beginner period and focuses on the senior athlete - and we’re all gonna hit that phase sooner or later.

[SilverPaladin]

I ran into this. Went on holiday for 1 week, no gym. Came back and smashed the barrier.

[hadrianaugustus]

It works, I did it. The simplicity is fucking amazing.

[woodshcc]

Im on my second run of the NLP. My first run of the NLP (6 months) along with 4.5 months of an intermediate program took me from a <45 lb squat to 405 lbs and a 135 lb dl to 500 lbs.

Hurt my shoulder and im starting over but its sooo much better the second time. Im learning different things this time around!