Do You Need to Drive Faster If You Have Downforce?

In this video we look at the myth that you need to drive faster just because your car has more downforce. Initially brought up by Jeremy Clarkson, I've seen it pop up quite a few times on the internet since then, and thought it would be interesting to run through some numbers.

[MrDrivingFaster]

One of the rare YT channels that produces information. Everyone else just produces noise.

[nelsonphillips]

I think the Clarkson statement was ad-libbing a quote from Alan Jones when the ground effects cars started. I suspect it was a perceptual shift that Jones was going through when dealing with high levels of downforce, rather than an engineering reality. However, the corner entrance speeds may be a closer match to this quote and may be what Jones was referring too.

[anomalyp]

THIS is the stuff we need! The physics behind it. Speaking for myself, not an engineer, so I wouldn't mind (like others no doubt) if you would make these longer and elaborate. Such a source of knowledge.

[pswmetalmonkey]

goddam ... its so good to have you back mate!

[ChuckThree]

Love the graphical representation here! How about a video on improving aero on 1/2mile and roll racing cars. Especially for classic cars and nontraditional body type vehicles... 1, 000-2, 000hp trucks and SUVS are becoming shockingly common at these events in the US

[DarkIzo]

one point that comes to mind

you dont have to drive faster, but you can drive tighter

edit: this video is actually almost the perfect answer to a problem ive had for many years, something even a bit of googling could t solve

"whats better, a car that drives tightly but slowly around a corner, or wide and fast ?"

there are so many physical problems in one simple question...

[soraaoixxthebluesky]

You’re back on youtube? Omg one of the best motorsport engineering related channel on YT.

[squidcaps]

Also, the idea that you have to go faster is based on balance; it means more that you can't slow down but need to keep the speed constant, even when it scares the living daylight out of you... There are also corners like Albert Park turns 9-10 where you need to straighten the car to get maximum acceleration.. which makes you point straight to a wall, you can't turn for a while, you can't lift cause it unsettles the rear and you just hope the whole aero gains enough downforce that it balances the car.. and then you can feel the grip just magically return. If you don't accelerate fast enough, you have to lift a bit to get more grip to the front, slowing you down before a straight and possibly unsettling the car.

[GroovedSlick]

Great video super interesting! As a Ph.D. candidate and avid racer I can't get enough!

I do think though that you have to inherently set up a high downforce car differently stiffer spring etc. This will usually make the car more unstable at low speed. So while you do not decrease your turning radius by going faster, the car will usually feel more stable. This is not a problem for f1 drivers since they have impeccable car control and can wrestle it at any speed, but your average weekend warrior (Jeremy Clarkson) would actually probably have better control of an F3 level car at high speed than they would at low speed. So while they don't HAVE to go faster through the corner, the car would be more stable and "safer" if they did. Or at least thats what I would say to the police officer as they take me to jail. ;)

I'd be interested to hear your take!

[jubuttib]

FWIW This myth existed way before Jeremy ever said anything about it. I've heard it at least since Group B rally days in the 80s.

[littlerhino]

Didn't realize you were back onto YouTube. Glad to see your videos again. Hope everything is well!

[derblaue]

I think what is different between high df and low df is how you approach a corner. The relative entry speed to apex speed should be faster in high df cars since you don't have such a huge corner radius penalty. But you have be harder on the brake later because you will lose grip faster. Basically think of the grip as a function of corner radius. If you have a higher entry speed the corner radius will also decrease faster requiering a lower speed. For low df the corner radius decreases more slowly because of the lower corner entry. You thus don't need (rather can't) brake as hard.

[espinetmatt]

Maybe a small suggestion on the model/graph you made. It would be easier to visualize if you could enter two values that you were comparing in the model and the graph would show both so you could see the difference directly.

[MrMarapro]

But what if your corner has negative camber? Or if your race track is upside down? How much negative camber would you need to get this principle to work?

[Beanpapac]

Great video as always, glad to have you back.

[kieranmcmahon]

That spreadsheet alone was worth watching for. I'm trying to make a very similar one for my team's F3 car (just running in a regional British championship). However I don't know Co Efficient of grip and a couple of other constants, makes for an interesting challenge to work them out.

Loved the video Kyle, so informative, to the point as always.

[greggreg]

Thanks for your channel...one of the few genuinely interesting ones on yt

[jverduin]

I would very much like to see the theoretical gain in laptime for a track car with realistic low-medium downforce. For non professional race teams like us i think it's interesting to see if the (extra) investments in aero are worth it.
I understand that it's very dependable of the track you're driving.

[trax]

What about the car balance? My car is definitely not a race car but 66% of the 3384 lbs with me in it is in the front. My car is a FWD hatchback. I believe I need to get negative camber in front to help from the understeer push on track.
I'm glad to see you back 👍

[JakobusVdL]

A bit different from the point you were making, but it would have been interesting to see the load vs cornering speed plots overlaid on the same scale to see the additional speed downforce allows a car to carry through a given radius corner.