Ancient Egypt's canonical gay couple?

These two men shared a 5th Dynasty tomb in the sacred burial ground at Saqqara, and are shown standing together as a couple. So why is it controversial? Why do some to this day insist they're brothers?

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[gingerkitty]

Favourite line - "All right you crazy kids get a tomb"

[herstory_original]

Thank you for indiscriminately explaining this peek into ancient history! Subscribed❤❤❤❤❤

[Sanisgillon]

I’m thrilled to see this art in action. I ugly laughed at ‘tomb mates’ sometimes you’ve just got to show off your burial mastaba with your bestie right?

There is so little art of gay couples this has been a little ray of sunshine for me this pride month.

[newsjunkie]

Could it be that they were gay lovers, but they also had wives for the purpose of having children, but they didn't love their wives? The idea that married couples should be in love with each other is fairly recent in history. So, maybe they saw marriage to a woman as a pragmatic necessity. I think this is roughly how the ancient Greeks thought of it, so it might have been similar for the ancient Egyptians.

[Mildon]

To be fair, while there have been (and probably still are) Conservative Egyptology scholars, there are a lot of scholars (my lecturers for example) that aren't, but still aren't sure on if they're gay or not. Either side contains personal and societal bias.
The main problem is that there's no other attestations of similar material, nor can we piece together the ancient Egyptian view on homosexuality. It's unfortunate, but at least it's a beautiful tomb!

On the idea that they are brothers, they do seem to have different fathers, as each side gives a different name for their father. Though its still possible they were step-brothers, I can't see how they'd be twins

[SandyTheDesertFox]

Gay royal hairdressers? Oh you KNOW these guys had some serious tea

[clrad.clver]

Yeah cuz Achilles and Patroclus were just *best buds*







(Achilles bottomed)

[ryuzakiraven]

Also there is the fact that the wifes are not burried with them

[sirlight-ljij]

The answer is "inconclusive". It never ceases to amaze me that given the enormous mass of time between us and them we are able to prove at least something about their lives

[lupen_rein]

The ancient Egyptians seem very progressive in social values compared to even modern times and especially compared to their Levantine neighbors, many of which were incredibly misogynist. Just look at the early parts of the bible, the Hammurabi code and others.
I think that the LGBT denialism of historians doesn't always derive from conservatism, sometimes there's this belief that a royal tomb of this kind would probably not been allowed because we always imagine our ancestors to be more intolerant than us. I am also astounded by how accepted it would have been, if the Pharao personally allowed their same-sex love tomb carvings. I would still imagine that Pharaos didn't like homosexuality and that the tomb would have been a private thing against social standards, like if the carvers and painters were in on it, but that others wouldn't have known. But then, maybe that's just my prejudice against our ancestors' supposed bigotry that might be more modern than we would like to believe.

[xg]

Very interesting, I still think its hard to be certain exactly what their relationship was. When you say "if one of these men was a woman you wouldn't hesitate to say they're a couple".. yes that is true.. but one of them isn't a women.. so its different circumstances... we have much more evidence for heterosexual marriages in ancient Egypt. So coming to the conclusion that they were a couple would be easier if one was a woman.. But because both are male it becomes more complex. I think that theres not enough evidence and other material to say for certain.... which is one of the annoying parts of history.. sometimes we have to say we don't know. It definitely is a possibility that they were a couple. and I 100% support gay rights. But we cant really judge the past when imposing out own context to it.
'THE PAST IS A FOREIGN COUNTRY: THEY DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY THRE'

[EricKirby]

Son padre e hijo, pero para eso hay que entender los jeroglificos y todo😅

[thequeen]

This is for the people who despise the idea of homosexuality in history for some reason:

we shouldn’t put our bias on history, I am gay but I still think it’s possible that they might not be gay but that doesn’t mean that they’re aren’t gay people in history what so ever, they exist they are just hidden either purposefully ( because of the oppressiveness of homophobic society ) or hidden by homophobic historians, gay or not it’s undeniable that same sex marriages and loves happened in history one way or another, if you believe that ancient society in the past does not agree with being gay that doesn’t mean that there are no one that will have same gender relationships secretly or as a lover, history have shown us many times that just because you’re married to someone doesn’t mean you love them, marriage then is more of a duty the idea of needing to continue the bloodline and all but love is different that’s why most kings and queens are married but have mistresses or concubines

[YTchannelreviews]

They weren't gay, the temple depiction is a masonic greeting, they weren't the original gay couple but the original masons, you see masons do that hug still today. You can tell it is ceremonial based on the aprons they are wearing and the gesture the people are doing beside them with the pyramid shaped aprons. No offense but caucasian people often get confused when it comes to african culture because they aren't ordained to be initiated into the Ancient African Mystery Schools, Masonry doesn't even give you u the knowledge you get from the mystery systems that are still alive today. good luck, don't be afraid to learn from cutthroat black scholars, they pack the most knowledge. Peace