How I Fixed Johto's Elite Four

Fixing Gen 2's Elite Four

[Bert]

Having this entire monologue about the most capable, strong Trainer to take care of Zapdos ending with calling him "Birdkeeper Lance" felt so out of pocket.

[Trixie_Lavender]

This makes me feel like you're going to replace Red's Espeon with Mewtwo. A worthy challenge and end to this game

[eligrabenhorst]

Blaine having Moltres will definitely be awesome.
Fun fact, in the Pokemon adventures manga, Blaine also battled with Entei and Mewtwo on different occasions, so out of all the Kanto leaders, it's fitting that he wound up with Moltres in your hack.

[dienercontent]

Having Lance mention getting Zapdos from Red is actually good foreshadowing for the Kanto part of the game. The player wonders if they will run into the other two legendary birds as well. And they get a preview of how powerful Red will be (because he isn’t even using these legendary birds). I actually think this is brilliant for storytelling purposes.

[k_thirteen]

I actually really like the idea of giving some of the NPC trainers the legendary birds with the explanation given

[freeflow]

Love the “Clair is a Dragon Master of the Sea” and “Lance is a Dragon Master of the Sky” piece. Well said.

[francescganau]

I praise how you moved me from a skeptic to an enthusiast of Lance's Zapdos. I agree, eeryone throws in a Kingdra because it is a Dragon-type, ignoringLance's theme completely. Zapdos, while risky, should have been a complete mindblow for any 10-year-old playing this game and remembering Lance from gen I. It would have been such an adrenaline rush.

[charliefoot]

Fun fact about Karen:
She uses all of the pokemon that you can catch in the routes adjacent to her hometown at nighttime - celadon city. Umbreon is the exception but you can get Eevee in the game corner!

[twarnold]

I actually like Karen keeping houndoom as her ace. I think of that as more iconically hers. Plus, she can have a strong Pokémon like tyranitar on her team, but that doesn’t have to be her ace especially with her philosophy. I think her seeing her pseudo legendary as her second best because she’s got her personal favorite Pokémon as her ace fits her character and doesn’t undermine her power.

[agm]

Never notice the sky/sea dragon themes with Lance and Claire respectively, kinda makes me think that Claire's gym should've been filled with boiling water instead of lava to point at her sea dragon theme.

[christinefarrell]

I like the idea of giving Karen Tyranitar, but it does run up against the problem of two story-significant bosses with T-tar as their ace coming pretty close together.

[matteolovito]

have you tried putting Wobbuffet on Will’s team? a gimmicky Pokémon would be cool to see (maybe if we expand his moveset slightly, without touching his nature). Also I think Mewtwo would be a great fit for Red, a cooler, stronger Psychic-type cat to replace Espeon (it also makes sense story-wise).

[Axecon]

A really cool unintentional detail of the Elite 4 in Gen 1 is that all the members are really dual-type specialists. Lorelei is efficient with ice & psychic types, Bruno with fighting and rock types, Agatha with ghost and poison types, and Lance with dragon and flying types. Sad that this trend never returned in future generations.

[ScuffTuff]

“You can’t make the pseudo-legendary of your region dark type and not give it to the dark elite four”

Yeah they’ve done that twice now.

[LemonCreamPyRose]

I feel like Karen losing Team Members thematically defeats the point of her theme, she's using her favorites, it's better to keep her with her favorites. If anything, it would've been better to either give her an additional team member or give all of her Pokemon extra tools to get the job done.
Vileplume could've functioned as a Support Wall Like Umbreon does, with the difference being that Umbreon loses to fighters while Vileplume can sit on them all day, which gives Vileplume a breath of life into that teamslot. It also can't be understated that Vileplume also does cover a weakness of hers, which Tyranitar actually makes even more obvious, Rock/Ground Types. Murkrow and Houndoom loses to the Rocks while Houndoom and Gengar, her 2 heavy hitters btw, lose to ground types, Vileplume, on the other hand, says hello to both and can scare them away with ease. Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain are all you need for attacks for this, the other 2 moves can be support oriented to help her team after the fact, such as Sleep Powder for Gengar. Tyranitar doesn't offer that.
The idea of her team consisting of her favorites while also being oriented to help each other is a great idea for her thematically as it fits with the original idea, and the idea of her being an Elite Four Member because she knows how to switch her Pokemon around to gain an advantage would make her a more intriguing member than simply padding her with a Tyranitar that you could, instead, easily give to Brock, Blue, or Red

[ivanbluecool]

Interesting how you are giving the old gen some new life in the lore and power levels. It's gonna make that highlights video legendary to see and people's runs fun to watch when this is done

[jlyn]

Zapdos is definitely a great addition for Lance, and the explanation for the three birds fits pretty perfectly, plus there's just a lot of very nice team choices in general. Also. Karen using "pokemon she likes" actually *fits* with the narrative of "Larvitar is perceived as weak by Silver, " while showing "how strong it can be when someone *isn't* obsessed with power, " so that's actually a much better fit than I think was even intended! Narrative parallels are always cool.

I do feel like giving Zapdos to Lance *might* not prove to be enough of a change on its own, but it's also difficult to figure out what else one could change to help with that... perhaps if, instead of Rain Dance on Gyarados (which does nothing to cover any of his weaknesses, given his original team ALL resists fire), there was Sunny Day on Charizard (which helps protect Charizard/Aerodactyl and can possibly be used to justify giving Charizard Solar Beam as an answer to Quagsire, which it outspeeds), that would help a bit with cementing Charizard's role as a check to some of the water types... assuming fire mitigates the ice weakness, actually, but that wasn't the case in gen 2, so I guess it'd mean Ice Beam is STILL a huge deal... Or perhaps just the raw power of Hyper Beam makes slower 'mons like Quagsire just less of an issue in general?

Giving Lance at least ONE pokemon that can resist ice beam feels like it'd make a huge difference... but I'm not sure who would suit that role. Like, if he's to have a water type that's work as a check to certain 'mons, Feraligatr actually feels similarly thematic as a "dragon-enough" 'mon that can pick up Dragon Dance in later gens. Plus, it can potentially fire off some fighting moves to help crack ice types, while resisting the surf/ice beam combo that carried so many through Lance, making for a nice *pivot* instead of a lead. Then again, Zapdos with Light Screen is VERY good, which might be entirely enough?

Also! If wanting to reinforce Karen's narrative about "just use the ones you like, " you could always just have her still using a few less optimal 'mons, but then have them raised to higher levels-- her spiel about using what you like could then be shown as something where she's worked harder and trained more to *make* that work, and then you could have Tyranitar feel like it's practically hypocritical of her... until you consider the Larvitar substory with Silver. Now *that* could be quite cool-- level is an underutilized mechanic for changing up the difficulty for a given pokemon, after all.

Also also! I feel like it does still seem strange for the Elite Four to be running 5-pokemon teams. Some of the cut 'mons feel like they could be kept in as 6ths if wanting to try and retain some of the teams' previous identities.

Will could perhaps have Wobuffet, as an unusual psychic type that never really gets a chance to be showcased prior. It would make for a strikingly strange pick, and fits well with Will's fixation on moves like Future Sight. Or perhaps Starmie-- a 'mon that only really sees use in Misty's team in Kanto, which always undercut its value as a psychic type. Though, this would mean Will's team would be largely comprised of water types, at that point, so maybe not.

Koga, meanwhile, could then keep a Weezing, to showcase some fire type coverage against possible steel types that would wall his poison-type attacks? It's an underrated 'mon that sports more of a solid statline than most'd expect.

Bruno, then, might even double down on the Steelix idea, as a further check to psychic and flying types. Or perhaps he might add on a powerful normal type that gets good use out of a high attack stat, like Tauros? Or a potential user of moves like Mega Punch and Mega Kick that has some coverage against flying types, like Electabuzz, perhaps?

And Karen, then, could also have the displaced Sneasel, if that's no longer to be Silver's signature 'mon. Which may well be a great contender for gaining several extra levels to raise its statline enough to justify its use, "despite being weaker, " or some such? It's a 'mon that doesn't really get much chance to shine, in gen 2, much like Murkrow, so it'd be interesting to consider, in any case.

---

Rambling, though. Tl;dr: cool stuff! I think the bird trio idea is particularly rad, as is the narrative parallel potential in giving Karen a Tyranitar.

[Nastara]

Ok… hear me out.

Replace Lance’s second dragonite with Skarmory!

From Bulbapedia:

Skarmory has much in common with the Andean condor and cranes, birds that are held in high esteem in Japan. It is also similar to many **mythological**, metallic birds such as the Stymphalian birds, the Gagana, and the Alicanto. In addition, its design resembles a **WYVERN**!

Do it please I beg of you!

[ivanbluecool]

Honestly like the final rival fight the elite four should be a major challenge to show the player they made it. Something like the bdsp elite four with amazing teams or buff in moves.

[verran.lokison]

I just want to play it already. I’m so stoked this happening. I started with Pokémon Blue but have always been a Gen II guy ever since playing Silver Version. Quilava and Umbreon are my #1 and #2 Pokémon of All-Time, even to this day. I love the changes to the Gym Leaders’ Teams, the buffs to the lackluster Gen II Pokémon, the level curve WHILE KEEPING THE NONLINEARITY THAT IS TRUE TO WHAT MAKES JOHTO, well, JOHTO and even these Elite Four changes! Thanks for your hard work man, and thanks to everyone that is helping you create such an awesome experience for myself to look forward to.