EEVblog #1167 - Let's Talk About Patents

With patent attorney Dr Phil Burns.
A quick chat about Innovation Patents vs Invention Patents for another video quickly turned into 30 minutes of general talk about patents, patent pending, the patent system, patent applications, patent attorneys, over-unity free-energy quackery, the claims and examination process and a host of other stuff.

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[Envergure]

If defending a patent costs seven figures, justice must be totally inaccessible to smaller enterprises. It's oligarchy.

[briandecker]

The key question regarding a patent is this: Can you afford to defend it? Because patent law, unlike criminal law, places the burden of proof on the holder and not the person accused of violating it.

[DeusExAstra]

Honestly, patents are now mostly just a weapon that large companies use to fight each other and squash small ones before they can get big enough to be a problem. Just try to come up with a new smartphone these days... it's impossible. Try to come up with a new operating system... good luck.

[Artisan]

Patents should become public domain in 10 years if the inventor has not brought it to market.

[steverobbins]

I've been writing my own U.S. utility patent applications for years, and every one of them was issued. In fact, I think I've lost only two claims out of more than 300 total.

A few times I've had to fight with the examiner. A lot of them don't really know what they are doing and sometimes they just reject all my claims based on some laughable misunderstanding. (For example, one guy said that a mag-loop antenna for short range wireless communication was the same thing as a current-sense transformer because the two windings in the transformer "communicated" with each other wirelessly.) When this happens I write a very clear and logical point-by-point rebuttal to their objections. But that is usually a waste of time because they can't understand any of it, and so they usually just ignore my response and declare all the rejections are "final". That's when I get my lawyer and set up a phone call with the examiner and his supervisor. When you explain stuff to them on the phone they usually see how stupid they've been, but they never admit it, so you have to throw them a bone in the form of some minor revisions to the claims, so they can save face. I've literally added just one word to claim 1 and gotten all my claims back. I've been through this dance like four times and never lost a single claim.

My advice to beginners is never let a lawyer write the application for you; write it yourself and then have a lawyer give you feedback. That way you learn a lot, and save a lot of money. For example, I recently filed two applications for a total of $6k, including my lawyer's fees and the filing fees. That's actually more than I usually pay. If your lawyer writes the whole application, the claims my be pretty good but typically the description is awful because he just doesn't understand the tech as well as the inventor. There are a lot of good books to help you learn, such as "Patent It Yourself" by David Pressman.

[MoseyingFan]

About patents scribbled on napkins.
The first note of the TFT LCD display is a napkin from Tsien Tsin, a Chinese restaurant here in Gothenburg.

[HHHarry]

That innovation patent system is specific to Australia

[IvoTrausch]

What the majority of people here don't get: You don't apply for a patent to protect your idea. You apply for a patent to get it infringed and sue the arse off the infringing party. That makes you far more money. That's also why they are always so convoluted.

[misterbreakit]

I'm an IP manager here in Canaduuuh. Excellent summary of patent related stuff. Good going EEV & Co.

[merlingallagher]

Patents or for the people with bigger wallets.
Getting a patent is one, but that also means you have to defend it.
Something most people forget.

[rikimiki]

did anyone notice that patents from big companies are actually impossible to understand? they must pay a lot to have the wording made in such a way that no one understands exactly the patent but in the case of a trial the description is good enough.

[RedwoodRhiadra]

On perpetual motion machines, I believe the rule in the US is that if you file an application for one, the first thing the USPTO will do is demand an actual working model.  For most inventions, a working model isn't required anymore, as long as it looks like it will work. But for perpetual motion machines, you have to build it first.

The rule isn't part of the law, though, it's just Patent Office policy, to cut down on the number of applications filed by cranks.

[alfoncejean]

Dave view on editing: how can I make myself even more an obnoxious over talking host thant I am already?


Don't worry we still like you and your work. your way of conducting interview is basically a meme at this point.

[erikschiegg]

Patents are the biggest hindrance for ameliorating mankind. They should be limited to max. 10 years.

[Anonymouspock]

But is a patent a good idea in the first place? I've seen some new prior art databases (patent pandas points to one I think?) which sound like a far better idea if you don't believe in offensive use of patents.

China not giving a damn about IP is a huge problem making patents worthless much of the time.

[rogerfurer]

I think it was Don Lancaster (TTL Cookbook etc.) who advised not to bother with patents. Saying that if you get something to market it will be counterfeited in other countries and you'd be better off making something new. This was directed at independent engineers and inventors.

[tme]

You can keep an invention or an idea for few euros into a registered envelop for 10 years. at patent institute in France ( INPI ). If you don't want to spend money into patent, you can at least be protected against someone who put a patent on your idea and prevent you to use your idea.

[johnlegros]

Love your video's, regarding patents, some countries in asia do go through all patents, just to copy the best commercialable ones and make new products either with small mod's or just straight copy, knowing they will get no claim due to costs ...even the big "pomme" or gargle let go ...

[TheSynthnut]

Prior Art doesn't seem to stop patents being granted! PWM in LED intensity control for colour mixing, Color Kinetics and Philips springs to mind as one that so should never have been allowed.

[AasifHaque]

This video is quite informative than many of the other youtube videos.