Grappling: Whose Order is it Anyway? (The Ten Commandments)

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In this particularly boring video Pastor Wolfmueller talks about how and why there are four different ways to number the commandments.

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[andrewclover]

This is super interesting. I could listen to you all day, Pr. Wolfmueller.

[dh]

09:05 Or anything else that is your donkey. Solid gold!

[MrGyngve]

@9:02-9:08 "...you shall not or anything else that is your donkey" :-) Got it!

[ritarevell]

Oh the irony of being a Lutheran. I like charts and the order as we do it, makes a great deal of sense to me.

[keimahane]

OUTSTANDING!! As always. BTW, I love charts too :)

[jwskud]

Great video.

I would add this interesting tidbit that defends the Augustinian/Lutheran numbering of the commandments:

We know from Luther's writings that he wrote strongly against the use of religious relics in the 1500s, and that (as discussed in the article) he held to Commandment 1b. However, he fails to address it anywhere in the small or large catechism, which makes it easy for non-Lutherans to claim we use graven images and no better than Roman Catholics.


With that in mind, I thought, "Well, that's all well and good, to use Augustinian numbering. But is it correct? Is it skewed too much towards Rome?" The search continued, and I finally found a satisfactory answer:

Check out this video describing the Dead Sea Scrolls and a later document called "Oriental 4445" if you want further insight:


In particular, check out about 16:23 into the video, which shows the oldest known Hebraic Old Testament manuscript (Oriental 4445, 850-950 AD) and how the commandments were divided based on this manuscript. Augustine used the same convention, and Luther took his convention. According to Oriental 4445, Augustine's numbering is the most accurate, based on how the text is divided in the scroll.

That being said, I still think Luther did us a bit of a disservice by not addressing Commandment 1b anywhere in his more common, laity-oriented writings, like the small catechism. I'm still not sure why he didn't, but as I said above, if you read enough Luther, you know he held it true as a commandment, and simply as an extension of the First Commandment.

Hope that helps, Peace.

[cuttingedgekarate]

There must be something wrong with me because I loved that!!

[RomGabe]

Loved the explanations.  But why did the Orthodox not think "graven images" were idolastrous ... as the Calvinists number #2 commandment ?

[aaroncarlson]

BORING!?
This is one of my most favorite things to discuss (argue) with my Calvinist friends. :)

[blkjet]

"I am the Lord your God...." is not a commandment.