[B] THE Historical PROBLEMS with MECCA (at CCSJ)

Jay now moves from the sources to confront the historical problems with Mecca, the 2nd part of this talk which he did on August 4 at Calvary Chapel San Jose.

So, why is Mecca so important?  Because it still exists, & thus can be researched.

What's more, we all know that Islam is dependent on 3 things, a Book called the Qur’an, a man known as Muhammad, and a Place called Mecca. When you begin to attack the Place (Mecca), the other two begin to wobble. But once you destroy the Place (Mecca), you destroy the other two as well. Thus, if we eradicate Mecca, then there is no Islamic Muhammad, nor an Islamic Qur’an, and down falls Islam.

So, let’s begin by looking at what Muslims claim for Mecca.

•Mecca is where Adam and Eve were thrown down to, from the Garden of Eden (Surah 7:24)

•Mecca is where Abraham lived when he destroyed the idols within the Ka’aba (Surah 21:51-71)

•Mecca is the center of trade North, South, East and West (Montgomery Watt’s ‘Trade Route Theory’)

So, it should be one of the best known and best documented places in history! Yet, there are enormous problems, including:

Conclusion #1: Mecca is important for Muslims because they believe that it is the earliest and most important city in the history of Mankind. Yet, references to Mecca in the Qur’an/Traditions don’t hold up historically (i.e. that it’s near Sodom and Gomorrah, or that Abraham, Ishmael and Hagar lived there).

Conclusion #2: The Vegetation & Peoples listed there are all 600 – 1,000 miles to the north. Other references suggest that Mecca is filled with lush fruit trees, grass, grains and streams, which make no sense as Mecca has always been in a desert with bad and depleted desert soil. What's more, geographically speaking, the Qur’an places almost all of its sixty-five referenced areas 600 – 1,000 miles further north of Mecca as well, suggesting that the authors of the Qur’an came from there.

Conclusion #3: The Qur’anic Arabic, as well as the supposed prophets are all situated to the north. Take a look at the Arabic word endings used in the Qur’an, such as the Aliph Maqsurah, or the Tarmabutah, or the definite article; none of them come from Mecca, but from Nabataean Aramaic, which is again situated 600 miles further north, while anyone writing in the Hijaz (Mecca) would have written in Sabaic Arabic, which is in the south (Yemen today).

Conclusion #4: No one has ever heard of it, due to where it sits, over 3,000 feet down off the trade route. When Dr Patricia Crone researched the surrounding civilizations to see if they had ever heard of the city of Mecca, not one knew of its existence, including those empires which were situated immediately close by. Yet, other much less significant towns close to Mecca (i.e. Ma’rib, Sana’a, Najran, Taif, Yathrib, Khaybar, Petra and Mamre) are all well-known and well documented; yet not one reference for Mecca. And the reason? When noting the trade route through these towns, we find that they are all located on the Western Plateau, while Mecca is over 3,000 feet down below it, proving it was not on any trade route.

Conclusion #5: Up to 741 AD, no historian, nor any geographer had ever referred to this city. When Ptolemy in the 2nd c. wrote his book on ‘Arabian Geography’, he never listed Mecca, so that none of the earliest 15th-16th c. European maps of Arabia have Mecca listed on them either. Neither the Land trade route (along the Arabian Western plateau), nor the Red Sea trade routes (along the East African coast) supports an early Mecca, proving that none of the trade went via Mecca at all, confronting the notion that it was the center of trade.

Conclusion #6: Here’s why no one heard of it…two words…”no water”. If you don't have water, you have no food; no food, no people; no people, no towns; no towns, now cities; no cities, no civilizations; no civilizations, no history! It's as simple as that. Despite Muslim’s claims for the ZamZam well (that Allah provides its “inexhaustible water” for over 1 billion believers), it gets all its water from desalinization plants built in the USA and Europe.

Conclusion #7: No mosque had a Qibla facing Mecca until 715 AD. Muslims have no idea why all of the earliest Qiblas were facing Petra (or Jerusalem) up to 706 AD, nor why none are facing Mecca until 715 AD. This suggests Mecca was chosen by the Abbasids in the 8th c. as their final sanctuary. The antecedents for the Meccan pilgrimage makes more sense with Jerusalem than they do with Petra, as they are not only earlier, but they use many of the same functions.

In Conclusion: Certainly, someone, somewhere, at some time should have known about this city; yet no-one, anywhere, nor at any time has, proving that it never existed at the time of Muhammad, nor during early Islam!

Note: if Mecca didn’t exist, then who is Muhammad and where did the Qur’an come from?
That’s next…

© Pfander Centre for Apologetics & Polemics - US, August 21, 2024
(109,170)

[exmuslimAlonzoHarris]

When talking to an abdul:
Q. How many qurans?
A. One quran
Q. Is hafs quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. Is warsh quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. Is doori quran a quran?
A. Yes
Q. How many qurans?
A. One quran
Q. Are all qurans around the world same?
A. Yes
Q. Do the Sana manuscript and Birmingham manuscript have variants?
A. Yes
Q. Are qurans preserved word for word, letter for letter?
A. Yes
Q. In sura 37.12, one quran says "you", another "I"?
A. They are different accents
Q. How many ahrufs did muhamad recite?
A. 7
Q. How many ahrufs did uthman destroy?
A. 6
Q. How many ahrufs today?
A. 7
Q. How many qiraats did muhamad recite?
A. None
Q. How many qiraats today?
A. 10, 15, 20, 50
Q. Is Bible preserved?
A. No
Q. Is muhamad prophesied in the Bible?
A. Yes
Q. Did muhamad marry a child?
A. No
Q. How old was aisha?
A. 6

[josepholaseni]

Heeey, this is amazing.
I always enjoy the results of your research work.
It is always convincing, incontrovertible.
Dr, Jay Smith you a light that reveals darkness of deception of more than a thousand.
May you live long in good health.
I love your works.❤❤❤

[YeshuaAkbar]

**Major Historical Issues with Mecca:**

1. *Nonexistent in Pre-Islamic Sources:* For a city supposedly vital to trade and religion, Mecca is shockingly absent from any significant pre-Islamic records. Prominent historians and geographers like Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy mapped Arabian trade routes and cities in detail, yet Mecca isn’t mentioned. If it were truly important, it would be on the map.
2. *Terrible Location for a Trade Hub:* Mecca’s geographical position makes no sense as a trade center. It’s isolated from major trade routes, lacks water resources, and has barren surroundings. The idea that merchants would go out of their way to trade here defies logic when better-located cities like Petra and Gaza existed.
3. *No Archaeological Footprint:* For a place that’s claimed to have been an ancient center of civilization, Mecca is conspicuously empty when it comes to archaeological evidence before the 7th century. Where are the buildings, artifacts, and inscriptions? They simply don’t exist, which is a huge red flag for claims of Mecca’s ancient prominence.
4. *The Kaaba’s Invented Origins:* The story that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba is a clear case of retrofitting Islamic tradition into a Biblical framework to legitimize it. There’s zero historical or archaeological backing for this tale—nothing outside of Islamic sources supports it. It’s more likely a fabricated narrative to create a connection to Judeo-Christian traditions.
5. *Confusion About Mecca’s Location:* Early Islamic sources can’t seem to agree on where Mecca actually was. Early mosques are aligned more toward Petra than Mecca, suggesting that the original holy city might not have been Mecca at all. This points to the possibility that Mecca’s significance was invented or shifted over time.

In short, the historical evidence points to Mecca being an irrelevant backwater that was later inflated in importance to fit Islamic narratives. The facts don’t align with the traditional story—it looks more like Mecca’s history was retroactively written to fit a political and religious agenda.

[svennielsen]

Less than 20 minutes and a complete religion is debunked.

[josepholaseni]

Waoo. Well done Dr, Jay Smith.👍👍👍
Is this not convincing.?
Only the blind and the deceived can not see this.
If there are facts to disproof points raised please bring it to the public domain. Thanks

[RJ_Numen]

For anybody wondering Jay is in his 70s, this man is a machine!

[mr.angelosonassis]

No archeology? No artifacts? No bones? No water? Then, no Mecca, no prophet, no Islam. And so Muslims may abandon this false teaching with confidence.

[dsj]

WOW! This is very interesting. Christian and non-Christian scholars are going back into history and are arriving in 7th century Southwest Arabia — the place where the “Islamic Mohammed” supposedly lived his entire life — in the Hejaz (Mecca/Medina Region). They are inviting Muslims to come along and to join them in the search for:
(1) Mecca — the oldest city in human history
(2) Mohammed — the best moral example for all of mankind
(3) Quran — the eternally un-changed and un-created book that was hand-written by Allah before creation
(4) And (of course) the remains of Aisha’s goat.
*
So far, these researchers, academics, and investigators have found no sign of a city called “Mecca” in the 7th century A.D., and no sign of a book called “Quran”. However, they have found plenty of sings of other Mohammeds elsewhere in Syria, Jorden, and further North — some of these Mohammeds predate Islam as far back as 1200 B.C. and other Mohammeds whose images are on coins that bear crosses.

[sura_.]

Words of scholar Marijn van putten:

It's worth adding that Arabic *bakkah* and Hebrew *båḵåʔ* are really pronounced quite differently. Had the Quran intended to to adapt the Hebrew word, we'd expect it to have borrowed the word as *bakāʔ* or *baḫāʔ*, and not *bakkah* that we find in the Quran.

It's mostly an issue of poor Latin transcription of the Hebrew that these words seem similar in English.

[exmuslimAlonzoHarris]

When talking to an abdul:
Q. Who is allah?
Abdul: god of islam
Q. Is allah the only uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the right hands of allah uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Is the shin of allah uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the qurans uncreated?
Abdul: Yes
Q. How many uncreated?
Abdul: One uncreated
Q. Is allah the same as his hands?
Abdul: No
Q. Is allah the same as his shin?
Abdul: No
Q. Are allah, allah's right hands, allah's shin and the qurans (allah's attributes) one?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one?
Abdul: No
Q. Is Jesus God?
Abdul: No because something that is uncreated cannot be created.
Q. Are the qurans uncreated and created?
Abdul: Yes
Q. Are hafs quran, warsh quran and doori quran three qurans?
Abdul: No. They are 3 recitations not 3 qurans.
Q. What does "quran" mean?
Abdul: RECITATION
Q. Are all the qurans the same?
Abdul: Yes
Q. But one quran says "I", another says "you"
Abdul: They are different accents

[alicelund]

I think it was first Petra, because Jerusalem was already too established in Nicene Christianity, to have all these Idols described in the Quran, and it would not have had the fringe Christians teachings that are in the Quran. Later after the Arabs conquered Jerusalem it became the "Holy City".

[bmid]

Jay, can you please do a video which summarises why you are suddenly favouring Jerusalem over Petra as Mecca.

[herr.schmidt]

I have never heard in my life that the Jews circumambulated the Temple in Jerusalem, or the Holy of Holies (which was in the back of the Temple), seven times.

[rockzalt]

Somebody took the Black Stone to Mecca. Perhaps he got more than anyone could wish for. To become the center of the universe.

[Mobius]

I side with Dan Gibson. The original Safa and Marwa were at Petra. The Hebrews took this idea from their stay there with Moses when it was known as Kadesh Barnea. Hagar did not run back and forth in Jerusalem.

[urbandsouza]

Jay .
Why not muslim schoolers refute you with their counter evidence?

[untotheeolord]

@Pfanderfilms, you mentioned in a video, a few months ago, that you reposted the "standard narrative", unedited, yet, I am unable to find it, will you please point me to it?

[christiansoldier]

Great Videos - do you have 10 bullets points I could give to a work colleague that wants to convert to Islam?

[bridgeb]

May god always bless you jay smith! Jesus’s highly favored !!!!

I have a question: what is Allahs real name??? He just has titles but not any actual name!

[robertjanssens]

Allah Allah knows that Islam is only a lie !