Is the Cosmological Argument Still Sound? with Dr. William Lane Craig and Dr. Stephen C. Meyer

[mkurosh]

The 14 Billion year old and the 6000 year old Universe can easily be reconciled together.
6000 years ago God created a 14 B. year old Universe. The same way he created Adam and Eve as adults and not as Babies.

[somerandom]

How are you people still talking about the Kalam like its anything close to being good? have you not seen all the ways it has been refuted?

[williamrice]

6000 years since the last reboot - problem solved.

[akoskormendi]

No, as none of the premises can be shown to be true. We have never seen anything beginning to exist (from nothing), and we don't have evidence that the universe begin to exist (from nothing).

[larzman]

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD JESUS and shalt believe in thy heart that GOD raised him from the dead thou shalt be Saved 🙌

[barryallen]

Craig is a heretic. He is Wesleyan theologian who upholds the view of Molinism and neo-Apollinarianism.
Key tenets of Apollinariansm include:
The denial of the human nature of Jesus beyond his physical body.
The belief that a created human nature is by definition incapable of sinlessness. (many problems with this)
Apollinarianism was condemned as heresy at the first council of Constantinople in the year 361.

[adcrane]

The lengths theists will go to never fail to shock me. I will believe in your god when you show me evidence for his existence. Until then you are asking me to believe your delusion because you believe it.

[WhiteUnicorn]

Dude's been wearing safety glasses for a long time now. Must be living in a dodgy city.

[bigtuna]

Stephen Meyer reppin the Zags? No way!

[cnault]

Doesn't matter if it's sound, it's an argument not evidence.

[jackcrow]

No, they cannot be reconciled
Christian must pick one

[iveseen]

Il bet they all believe the scientific findings but refuse to admit it.

[drzaius]

Using a syllogism to prove god is insane.

[mattslater]

It never was sound.

I don't think CE knows what sound means

[Rydonattelo]

Yes, they can be. Evidence points to a nearly 14 billion year old universe. What I find extremely strange is that as a human species we have no recollection of time before 6 thousand odd years ago. Which is very strange that we seen to gave been here for billions of years in one form or another and has humans for hundreds of thousands, possibly millions yet we have collective amnesia that kicked in a few thousand years ago.

[jakey]

There are two basic forms of cosmological arguments, and the easiest way to think of them might be the “vertical” and the “horizontal.” These names indicate the direction from which the causes come. The argument in the vertical form is that every created thing is being caused right now (imagine a timeline with an arrow pointing up from the universe to God). The horizontal version shows that creation had to have a cause in the beginning (imagine that same timeline, only with an arrow pointing backward to a beginning point in time).

The horizontal cosmological argument, also called the kalam cosmological argument, is a little easier to understand because it does not require much philosophizing. The basic argument is that all things that have beginnings had to have causes. The universe had a beginning; therefore, the universe had a cause. That cause, being outside the whole universe, is God. Someone might say that some things are caused by other things, but this does not negate the argument, because those other things had to have causes, too, and this cannot go on forever.

To illustrate the kalam, or the horizontal cosmological argument, let’s take a simple example: trees. All trees began to exist at some point (for they have not always existed). Each tree had its beginning in a seed (the “cause” of the tree). But every seed had its beginning (its “cause”) in another tree. There cannot be an infinite series of tree-seed-tree-seed, because no series is infinite. All series are finite (limited) by definition. There is no such thing as an infinite number, because even the number series is limited (although you can always add one more, you are always at a finite number). If there is an end, it is not infinite. All series have two endings, actually—one at the end and one at the beginning (try to imagine a one-ended stick!). If there were no first cause, then the chain of causes never would have started. Therefore, there is, at the beginning at least, a first cause—one that had no beginning. This first cause is God.

The vertical form of cosmological argument is a bit more difficult to understand, but it is more powerful. Not only does the vertical argument show that God had to cause the “chain of causes” in the beginning, but it shows He must still be causing things to exist right now. Again, we begin by noting that things exist. Next, while we often tend to think of existence as a property that things sort of “own”—that once something is created, existence is just part of what it is—this is not the case. Consider the triangle. We can define a triangle as “the plane figure formed by connecting three points not in a straight line by straight line segments.” Notice what is not part of this definition: existence.

This definition of a triangle would hold true even if no triangles existed at all. Therefore, a triangle’s nature—what it is—does not guarantee that one exists (like unicorns—we know what they are, but that does not make them exist). Because it is not part of a triangle’s nature to exist, triangles must be made to exist by something else that already exists (someone must draw a triangle). The triangle is thus caused by something else—which also must have a cause. This cannot go on forever (there are no infinite series). Therefore, something that does not need to be given existence must exist to give everything else existence.

Now, apply this example to everything in the universe. Does any of it exist on its own? No. So, the universe had to have a first cause to get started, and it also needs something to give it existence right now. The only thing that would not have to be given existence is a thing that exists as its very nature. It is existence. This something would always exist, have no cause, have no beginning, have no limit, be outside of time, and be infinite. That something is God, the “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge” (Psalm 19:1–2).

[AussieNaturalist]

The Kalam Cosmological Argument was never a sound argument to begin with, and it still isnt.
And it seems that lying is okay if you're lying for Jesus...

[keananfischer]

Yes it can be reconciled. God created everything matured in the 6 days of creation. So who's to say that some of the elements and stuff that they date to many years could legitimately be interpreted to be that age because of how God has designed everything it needed to be that way. Elements in parts of a brand new car come from metals that are technically alot older than the car itself. But once the car is put together and made operational you say it's a new creation. Not some of it is new and some is extremely old.

[MagnumLapua]

Either way God guides his creation. Doesn't matter if it is 60 thousand or 60 million God created the universe. Golden Ratio proves there was one intelligent being.

[hansdemos]

Dr. Meyer says that every system "has" to answer the question of ontology, but of course that is not true. If we are honest and admit that we don't actually know this, what objection could Dr. Meyer have?