Dreams, Fairy Tales, and the Demons of AI | Jonathan Pageau | EP 364

Ep. 364

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson and Jonathan Pageau discuss the depth of narrative found in the classic fairy tales, the loss of positively impactful narratives in the wake of woke culture, the potential utility of Ai as a means to prod new insights from historic and biblical texts, the cynicism of postmodernism, and the overall necessity to preserve foundational storytelling.

Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a YouTube channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.

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(0:00) Coming up
(0:24) Intro
(1:56) Writing fairy tales
(2:23) Betty Boop, Fleischer Studios
(3:41) Recapturing Snow White
(4:56) The core of foundational stories
(7:17) Postmodernism and metanarratives
(8:46) Answering the question, story pattern
(10:10) Micro narratives, metaphors for puberty
(12:53) Modeling adulthood for children
(15:35) Meaning of change, Piaget
(19:24) Embodying the character, psychopathology
(25:12) Knowledge of beauty
(30:02) Dark mirrors, being fed your carnal desires
(34:19) The mechanisms of attention, Ai targeting
(36:15) Aladdin, Solomon, infinite power
(40:14) The spirit that call to you
(42:47) Pointed elements, levels of elaboration
(45:51) Jung, dream amplification
(49:01) The weaponization of beauty, parallel symbolism
(52:09) Dream analysis
(54:45) Speaking to the King James Bible through Ai
(58:02) Binding mythologies with religion in the ancient world
(1:00:28) Asking Bard if it believes in God
(1:03:08) Hyper divination, digital necromancy, non-human agency
(1:05:32) The degree of change, superficial learning
(1:07:46) Giving up the legitimacy of of reality
(1:09:15) Strange players in the next U.S. election
(1:11:00) Tell better stories, ARC
(1:14:54) The giants that derail us, Jack and the Beanstalk
(1:22:26) When the narrative and objective would meet
(1:23:12) If the doors swing open, stop pushing
(1:26:16) Inviting tyranny, the castrating narrative
(1:29:18) Building out the biblical cosmos
(1:34:11) Connected universes, Jason and the Argonauts
(1:35:27) The Symbolic World Publishing
(1:37:30) The deep cynicism of postmodern storytelling
(1:39:37) Bringing back darker elements in a modern way

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[neilburns]

These men when they get together are by far the best conversationalists going in this space. Very little ego, a lot of listening and sharing deep insight with a child like excitement. Amazing

[thomasveech]

I found Pageau in a Peterson Video. Now I follow Pageau more closely than Peterson. He really has helped me see the world with the collective wisdom of thousand-year traditions.

[michaeljordan]

You know its gonna be one hell of an interesting convo when Jonathan comes on

[jennymcgowin]

I think God has given wisdom to these two men, Dr. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau. I could listen to them all day long. This conversation about writing fairytales has just lit my brain on fire! I love it! I’m going to try and write one myself! Seriously….😊

[Croaven]

I would give everything I own for a friendship like theirs. To be able to sit down for 2 hours and talk about the deeper meaning and hidden theology of traditional stories is not something you can do with very many people. I love these discussions. Thank you for taking us along with you on the journey.

[bensandivar]

Dr. Peterson, I know it's been a while but I am delighted to see you back to your normal self. I was worried you wouldn't ever be the same after your health problems. But it's a miracle to have you back in great shape and I am glad you are back and you are doing a lot of things to further your message and your very positive influence for good and I we are blessed to live in the version of this world where you are still among us and doing what you are doing. I can't imagine anyone else being up to the task in quite the same way. The time you were gone from YouTube was a kind of dull and hopeless time, but I am glad that has come to an end and you are making such vibrant and inspiring content. Keep it up, you don't know how much we need you still and I am looking forward to all the great things you are yet to do. Thank you for your wonderful work.

[HazelBerryD]

Oh my. The comments Jonathan made about Snow White being forced into hyper awareness of her own beauty instantly led me to understand a lot of things about someone. It became a tool that not only brought harm to her, but eventually one that she used to harm herself. And underlying is still innocence and confusion. It's been a sad situation. Thank you both for the insights.

[bradleymelton]

Hearing truth being spoken in a eloquent manner is always a beautiful experience. GOD Bless Dr.JBP

[SpiderDiscord]

The Jonathan and Jordan conversations are always the best. Thank God for blessing us with such insights through you two. All the best.

[MrWeAllAreOne]

As a child I was forever reading books. My aunt gave me an illustrated book of russian folklore stories and they were amazing. Full of adventure, darkness and lessons to be had abundant.

[geoffshelton]

The way Wokism has torn these stories apart has left GENERATIONS of people HUNGRY for good stories such as these! Keep up the good work!

[mamamel]

JP & JP!! I don’t know if it gets better than this?! Thank you both for your wisdom and bravery.

[JasonSilverMusic]

Wow, the mirror / cellphone stuff hit home. As a 54 year old man, whose desire is to compete against young, strong, effective men, I often get caught up in the world of comparison. I was blown away by the "capitalist machine giving us what we want, and also WHAT WE HATE..." wow. I need to really soak in these ideas.

[DevynBrugge]

So excited about these foundational stories by Jonathan Pageau. Great idea!

[alainmorales]

I am blessed to be alive at the same time as these sages. I'm always looking forward to these podcasts to learn something new.

[synaesthesia]

7M subscribers!!! Congrats Jordan! You feel like a mentor and second father to me ❤ I felt lost before I found you. My father passed away in 2009. He would have loved you!

[TheGeneralGrievous]

The Foundational Stories are so important. It is sad we are loosing track of them in the modern world.

[sergiosarmiento]

These two have helped open up my eyes to the spirits underlying our reality, and I don’t think I’ll be able to unsee it all.

[Leo-mrqz]

I like to listen to the conversations with Johnathan and Jordan because they respect each other's opinions and the conversation seems to flow, not be dominated by one side. 😊

[ThomasH__]

Always enjoy the conversations between Peterson and Pageau. Great stuff!