Bad Mormon: Author Heather Gay from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City | Ep. 1727

Between attending orthodox services, embarking on an eighteen-month mission, attending Brigham Young University, and marrying into a "royal" family, Heather was the definition of a "good Mormon." However, when the doting wife's husband unexpectedly filed for divorce, she was left out in the cold by her church and her community. In this funny, brash, and unbelievably vulnerable book, Bad Mormon recounts Heather's experiences as a single mother to three girls, navigating life post-divorce and post-Mormonism.

00:00:00 Introduction & Real Housewives recap
00:05:55 Why write the book
00:10:03 Heather’s “Mormon CV”
00:15:44 Book Theme: Becoming a working mom and professional
00:17:15 Mormonism was the center of Heather’s universe
00:20:01 Heather thought Mormon garments were normal underwear for everyone
00:21:15 Reading: Heather learns not everyone is or even likes Mormons
00:26:17 Hosanna Shout
00:29:15 Book Theme: Temple rituals & Patriarchal Grip
00:34:10 Baptism & the shame of first sins after
00:40:11 Reading: Story of planning her daughter’s perfect baptism
00:42:30 External rituals fuel internal pressure to meet expectations
00:43:38 Adolescence in Holladay, inappropriate Bishops interviews
00:45:50 Ecclesiastical abuse from Bishop’s persistent questioning over masturbation
00:47:40 High-demand religions teach members to lie & lose themselves
00:53:30 Reading: James Barnes III background to the story,
00:56:30 Personality too big for the men at BYU
00:58:10 Reading: Dinner in the Tree Room
01:00:00 Processing pain through humor
01:01:36 Heather’s only moment feeling like a whole woman
01:04:18 Meets & marries Mormon “royalty” Billy Gay.
01:07:40 Heather feels an equal to Billy until after marriage when status becomes obvious
01:11:03 Heather & Billy betray themselves for church & marriage.
01:15:00 The church rushes young marriage to the detriment of most couples
01:17:40 Big life things force us through our public facades to face the truth
01:19:10 By clinging to those gospel tenants leads us away from our children.
01:19:50 Why she does NOT identify as “Bad Mom”
01:23:22 Being able to give daughters the ability to have the connection to self she lost.
01:25:16 Heather discusses her loss of faith
01:28:58 Finding the strength and courage to respect and share her story
01:31:08 Ready to start deconstructing Mormon history
01:33:33 Heather felt more fake & performative as Mormon housewife than on reality TV show, Real Housewives SLC
01:38:32 “Wickedness” has been absolute happiness for me.
01:40:00 Heather’s legal issues with the Church & Attorney Casey Jones
01:47:55 Church’s fear of bad PR in excommunicating famous people
01:48:30 Giving voices to a silenced community
01:51:00 Real Housewives Update
01:53:00 Reactions
01:54:45 The truth is ALL Mormons are bad Mormons.
01:55:00 Heather hopes Mormon women feel seen when they read this book

ABOUT US:
Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.

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[Lizzycar]

Heather’s first interview on MS was the beginning of the end for me. It popped up as a suggestion on YouTube and out of curiosity I listened. It was the first time I realized that I wasn’t alone in my experiences. I completely fell down the MS rabbit hole and couldn’t stop listening. Hours and hours and hours of MS. I was one of those Mormons that had no clue about “all the things.” Thanks to Heather for being a safe interview for a believing Mormon and thanks to MS for the body of work cataloged that allowed me to untangle 48 years of indoctrination. I’m so glad to be thriving as a Bad Mormon! I’ll be picking up my copy tomorrow.

[sharonkranz]

I started watching Mormon Stories a week ago. I’m a 58 yo non-Mormon, native of Utah who was never allowed in my Mormon friends homes. I am blown away by these interviews. They are so incredibly powerful. My heart and prayers go out to all these people. I can already see they have the power of God leading them every step of the way. The peace I see in their faces by the end of their interviews is so beautiful. Heather is beautiful! 💛

[cyasmiles]

I have never watched the series, no idea who Heather was before today. I am amazed by the parallels of our lives. I was in Colorado at the temple dedication and also moved to Utah the same as Heather. I am moved to tears and appreciation for our similarities. Hearing a voice beyond my own with validation.

[Ronigirl]

Her conversation about touching herself, brings me to tears. No child, teen, or person should ever have to disclose such personal and confusing details about themselves under pressure. I’m very appreciative of her interview, but it also greatly disturbs me for my younger sisters and what they’re going through. Thank you, and it’s truly sad what’s we go through here. 😔

[janangel]

When you go through a divorce in the church, you are definitely treated differently. Been there done that.

[JustJ-Me]

As a Never-Mo who grew up with one side of my family being devout LDS/ Mormons, I really love hearing Heather and her experiences as well as everyone else at MSP discussing their experiences. You all are incredible ❤️

[crazymusiclady]

I had the same experience. Only my husband took my kids and my ward's only concern was that I show up to do my duty as a Primary pianist. So much for compassion!

[LauraOttawa]

The church obviously feels threatened by her because she's so smart and independent

[kaesmithmusic]

Interesting that I'm one of the many never-been-Mormon subscribers -- I had no idea there were so many others! Thank you, Heather Gay, for being so open about your story. Thank you, Margi, for always being such a wonderful, smart, thoughtful, kind co-host. And thank you, John, for all you do to bring these podcasts to us. They have truly helped me in my journey from a different high-stress religion to a joyful, peaceful, calm spiritual path. It's such a difficult transition, and hearing/seeing others that have made it through safe and sound continues to help me put the past in the past and look to a much brighter future. Many bright blessings to all three of you!

[BrigitteDiessl]

I watched Heather and Dre's interview together earlier last year and it was clear that Heather was really struggling with being an ex-Mormon and was being really tough on herself. As a never-Mo and a widow of 16 years (I was 37 and it was sudden and unexpected) it made me so sad that she felt she wasn't a whole person or a good person (which, for me, includes being a good or not good mother.) I'm so heartened to see how well she is doing, now. The book sounds amazing. I'm going to get the audiobook and listen to it. It's hard to be an amazing Mum without a partner. You're suddenly grieving but supposed to be a great Mum and you have young kids and people judge you no matter what. In this interview, Heather has smiled so much and it's great to see.

[Jharrison]

I gotta see this. She must be powerful, because I never have known the lds to "sue" an individual until now. I (for one) already support her 100%.

[michelemiller]

I have got to read her book! I was raised LDS by parents whose families were Mormon. I never went full into believing - my 3 older sisters - my sisters. My oldest sister is 6 yrs older so when I was 12 her guy friends were getting ready for their missions. They were on my front porch & mentioned that if our parents didn't get baptized & weren't sealed in the temple we wouldn't be together in heaven. I told them "I don't believe that." They were quite surprised by that & cited the sources of that. That didn't sway me, I just didn't believe a loving God would do that. I'm grateful I had that strength/independence starting pretty young. I stayed in the church - but half of my friends weren't LDS - until the church still was denying black men the priesthood & that the church were so against the ERA. That was it for me, there's a limit to what you can take on faith!

[TheLazyhomesteader]

Exmormon mom here! My oldest is 6 and then I have two others, i would love to see an episode all about helping Exmormon parents navigate parenting the difficult conversations outside of the church, like relationships, dating, sex all of that!

Also I resonated with her so much when she said she was that 10 year old girl who woke up one day and realized she was going to have to change who she was to be loved and liked. Wow

[RosyJreams]

I hope the church fights really hard and makes a big splash in the media- and then I hope that you WIN BIG Heather! 🤣😂

[sar]

Interesting about Heather's mom. I grew up Baptist. Many years ago, I was confronted with the fact I was a poser. I will not go into the details, but it became really clear that I had been indoctrinated into the mindset of what a perfect christian woman, wife, mother looked like. Not that emulating something good is wrong, but when you lose yourself in it, it can be devastating. I remember the day I looked at my house and could not see myself in it - not in the decor, not in the carefully organized and clean kitchen, closets, and bathrooms, not in the pictures on the walls, and thought to myself, "What is this? Whose is this?"

I realized I believed I needed to live up to an image in order to be acceptable in that environment and not only that, to be acceptable to God. It was a hard transition. I did not give up on God, but I did give up on "church". Thankfully, I was able to come out on the other side. One last observation for anyone who made it this far in this comment. Religion is death. It is designed to control. Having a covenant relationship with your Creator is totally different and life giving and self-affirming.

PS. the bishop interviews sound like the auditing of scientology.

[glendastansbury]

As a never-Mo who is a lifelong student of cults and high demand organizations, MS is #1 on my subscriptions list. The ironic part of my early years is that I was sent to Vernal UT in 1975 to work with the Baptist church there as a summer missionary. So the LDS missionaries and I had a great time having conversations. (Baptist preachers kid who left that faith decades ago)
I so enjoyed Heather and Dre’s interviews—all of them—and promptly purchased the audio book. Honesty and vulnerability and compassion is what will save the world. My father, who refers to himself as a recovering Baptist, believes that if religion was going to save the world, it would have done so a long time ago. What gives us purpose and meaning is just carrying an open heart and walking each other home. Great work John and all your guests.

[TLCTEXAS]

Baptist 70 yr old and I’m enjoying learning about the Mormon cult. Love Heather❤

[Ms.Stephanie.C]

My 1st “sin” after my baptism was I slapped my younger brother in the car ….. on the way home from my baptism ….. because he was annoying me. I felt so horrible like I couldn’t even be clean for a couple hours. Someone (can’t remember who) said something about how all the people who got baptized before me, all their sins were floating in the water when I got baptized, & it really bothered me because I was thinking the sins were going to stick to me.
I didn’t even want to get baptized because my oldest brother had just come home from serving a mission & he told me that I HAD TO KNOW the church was true before I got baptized or it was really bad. I asked my mom not to make me do it yet (because I didn’t KNOW), but she made me anyways. I don’t have good memories of getting baptized at age 8.

[smilingjacks]

Evangelical Christian in UK for 30 years and attended church since birth 10 years before. I can see now how it's seen as 'high demand'. In process of deconstructing my faith as an LGBTQIA+ disabled and chronically ill Christian. Can relate to surprising nurmber of stories featured. Looking forward to reading Heather's book. Appreciate this podcast so much. Thank you John.

[danawood]

My parents were Mormon in Carson city Nv when I was little then divorced. Left church and on my own as teenager went back to the church in Tigard Oregon. then left after high school! That sums up my Mormon experience.