If you go to the University of Waterloo, please watch this ❤️ (toxic coop culture)

Studying Computer Science at the University of Waterloo has given me so many opportunities and incredible experiences that I will be forever grateful for. However this also comes with its own set of challenges. We need to talk more about mental health and stress. The university needs to be there for its students and I am here to break the ice.

But just know if you are going through it that there is hope, life will be good soon ❤️

Would also like to highlight some messages from my friends:

“while i am grateful for the opportunities that waterloo co-op has given me, the brutal student culture that comes along with it almost made it not worth coming here. the co-op system has given us so much privilege that we are often out of touch with reality. constantly hearing things like “i’d never take a job in canada” or “ew i don’t want that job, the pay is so ass” gave me such a damaged perception of what it means to have a “good” job. i spent entire years dismissing awesome jobs and feeling like i was worth nothing just because i wasn’t working at big-name companies. i’ve been told staying in canada after grad is a stupid decision because i’ll be making way less money (aka six figures CAD instead of six figures USD). do they not think about how many people are trying to get by with minimum wage, can’t find viable jobs straight out of undergrad, and are struggling trying to make ends meet?  the waterloo mentality is such bullshit.” - Veronika Sustrova

“Waterloo’s co-op program has definitely presented me with more advantages than we probably come to realize, with companies having a big preference for those in the co-op program. It’s made schooling such a different experience where grades don’t matter and interviews do; where you’re judged based on your LinkedIn first and foremost. As harsh as this is at times, the pressure mimics real life dynamics and having the emphasis be on jobs/experience sets everyone up for success in the future. However, this is not without competition between peers and the pressure of finding a job shifting your focus from school. At times, it is also easy to fall into the pressure of thinking you need a “cali co-op” when it may not be what you want or care to have. Overall though, it’s definitely something that sets its students up for success, despite the hardships.” - Irene Martirosyan

Shoutout Juthika Hoque and Mahbod Sabbaghi for also sharing their story (didn't have enough space to put there message, pls watch the video)

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♡ As always, if you have any other questions, comment them down below or message me on Instagram @mary1afshar. ( / mary1afshar)

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#Waterloo
#computerscience
#thirdyear

[NadinePigida]

Hi Maryam,

I’m so sorry to hear about what you’ve gone through, and I can especially relate to your feelings when you tore your ACL, as I had a similar injury. I can’t imagine what going through surgery must have been like and I’m happy to see that you are better now. I also wanted to say I really respect that you spoke on the encampment, I completely agree with you and I do think that Waterloo has acted extremely poorly in that regard. I don’t want to start beef with this comment, but I think this is long overdue.

I have some things I wanted to say to you, and about the toxic CS mindset in general, and this seems like a great opportunity. When I was living with you and spending time with you (2 years ago), it was very obvious to me that you placed a lot of your self worth on getting a high-status, high-paying tech job. I am very happy to see you realizing now that this is not a good mindset to have.

I still remember you telling me that you were not sure if you wanted to be friends with me because you believed that you are the sum of your 5 closest friends, and that you needed to surround yourself with people who “bring you up”. I knew exactly what you meant…it was because I didn’t have the same goals or ambitions as you. I didn’t want a Cali coop, I just wanted a fulfilling job. I didn’t spend a lot of my time doing leetcode or doing side projects…Instead, I went skateboarding, I was dating, I went to parties, etc. I still tried my best in school, and got coops in tech that I was happy with, but I didn’t have the “Cali or bust” mindset like so many in CS. Being surrounded by people in CS with the same mindset as you, I was looked down upon and not taken seriously. Throughout all of this, I felt that it was hypocritical for you to be part of the organization WiCS (Women in Computer Science), dedicated to supporting women in the field, such as myself.

I have very conflicting feelings watching this video, because it feels like I’m hearing my own advice from 2 years ago being spoken back to me by the person who I shared it with. The things you said about finding a job that fulfills you rather than focusing so hard on the status and the pay, about not caring about what others think of your coop, about seeing the good in things, being grateful, and finding joy in hobbies…It’s great advice, and I’m glad to see that you’re living by this worldview now. While I’m happy to see you doing better now, I wonder if this is truly because you’ve developed this new mindset, or also because of the fact that you made it through tough times in Waterloo both personally and academically, and you’re now at your dream Cali coop. Of course, I don’t want to invalidate your mental health struggles at all. Everyone is valid in their struggles, no matter how privileged they may be. I can see that struggling with mental health made you realize that others may be feeling this way too, but your video doesn’t really sit well with a lot of students who are very far from being in the same position as you. Your words would hold a lot more weight if you weren’t speaking to us from the position of someone who has achieved the Cali coop and LinkedIn profile that everyone is competing for. The people you feature in this video are in similar positions as well…It would have been nice to see perspectives of other people in CS, namely people who have failed courses, experienced layoffs/unemployments, worked tech jobs that aren’t big tech, or even switched programs to discover fulfilment outside of this bubble.

It feels like there is an important element missing in this conversation, which is taking accountability for when we may inadvertently participated in perpetuating toxic CS co-op culture. It just feels insulting to watch this video knowing that you and many others in CS haven’t reached out to me (and others) about your actions, either to take accountability or to apologize. While I understand that you’ve been a victim of this culture, I think you should also recognize the part you’ve played in creating it. On the whole, it would be nice to see some accountability as part of everyone’s growth.

I also wanted to mention that I don’t think this is a Waterloo-wide problem. Making friends with people from other programs through my hobbies led me to realize that CS is a bubble. Many people I’ve spoken to from other programs are literally in disbelief about the things that CS students are worried about. While your solution was to “leave Waterloo”, my solution is to just leave the toxic CS bubble. But of course, if you are a student in CS, that’s easier said than done. The university is accepting the top 4% of applicants who are mostly motivated by getting a Cali coop…so it becomes a very competitive environment, which leads to the toxicity that you mention in your video. I agree that the university can definitely do better on providing better mental health supports, and not allow students to take on such a heavy workload. But I truly believe that this culture stems from the hyper-individualistic and high-achieving mindset that incoming students have. All-in-all, I think the mantra should be, rather than “Waterloo do better”, that we as students in CS should be more supportive, accepting and kind to each other.

[Jacobsalmon]

Bro this comment section alone is enough proof for how toxic waterloo is😭

[b-uj]

I agree with you on all those points, but I think this issue should have been spoken upon by people who have been through this struggle AND haven’t had the big coops in question. Everyone involved in this has had a california/big tech coop. Everyone involved has had the privilege of choosing between cad and usd. Yes, these people have had to go through mental hardship to get there, and I support speaking up about such issues. But what about the people who haven’t had this privilege but worked 10x harder? Whether that be because they were less privileged earlier in life so they didn’t have the resources to attempt to get there in the first place, because they had pre-existing mental health issues, aren’t part of the formal co-op program, or just simply not being as lucky as you.

I think 90% of waterloo students are in this boat right? So being a part of this 90% that haven’t had these crazy positions and then seeing you guys posting about your fun term in california is only contributing to the toxic culture. It makes us feel like maybe we’re not a majority, maybe everyone is doing some fancy coop and we’re just behind.

Now this is not to say you cant be prideful or post about your successes, or that you can’t speak up about your struggles if you’ve been privileged with coop. But that these types of people should not be the ONLY representation of such issue especially when they do not accurately represent the struggles of the majority of waterloo students. Because of that, this video/campaign seems like just another, louder, way of posting online about your successes. If the point of view of more average waterloo students were actually taken into account, maybe it would not have come across this way. Again this is not to de-value speaking up about the struggles of privileged people, but just the mere fact you were aware enough to call yourself privileged should have hinted that maybe there are less privileged people out there that would like to have been represented.

Also, saying things like “the coop system gives us so much that we are often out of touch with reality” further exemplifies the need for more “in touch” students to speak on the issue.

[AnishaLatchman]

You are not alone. Similar feelings with U of T's co-op program. Thank you for sharing <3

[pengu]

Very good video, and kudos for expressing your opinion on these sensitive topics. Although I do not go to Waterloo (I go to another university in Ontario), I can definitely relate to the overall grind set perspective a lot of cs students have. It’s a very toxic mindset to have, and I am definitely someone who was once severely plagued by this type of thinking. It was not until I completely burnt out from grinding (side projects, school, leetcode, etc) that I saw the disservice I was doing to my physical body and mental health.

Also, I think grade 12 is the initial breeding ground for this sort of toxic thinking with university applications. Students are in competition amongst their peers to get into highly ranked schools and put their entire identity into the school they get into. The ones who don’t get into the high ranked programs they want to go to are often left feeling disappointed with themselves leading to more negative thinking patterns. This competitive type of thinking is then expressed through the current coop/internship grind crisis in universities where a very similar dynamic is shown; instead of high ranking schools being the perceived goal, it’s high paying tech internships.

Overall, I think the number one preventative measure that the universities can do for students to prevent mental health crises in students, is providing free mental health education and support. Awareness is key to prevention because you can take the necessary steps to avoid problems from worsening.

[amadif]

Ten years from now, whether someone's co-op pay was $26 vs $28, or if they got a 72 vs a 65 in CS486 will mean absolutely nothing. People who define their self-worth over those types of things (or worse, try to put other people down over it) are really wasting their time.

[mujtabarehman]

Amazing video. I look forward to what you have to say in the next one.

Waterloo is amazing in many ways but fails in so many others. Honestly right now I feel like I barely have my head above water with 3rd year. And not being able to find a Fall co-op either certainly isn't helping the situation. While the institution does not do enough, I think there are lots of individual profs who care immensely about their students (also some ones that don't ngl).

Also, I applaud you for having the courage to speak on the encampment while having a job in big tech. It's important to talk about, but the truth is that most Waterloo math+eng students are apolitical. Maybe this is a result of being thrust into such an individualistic environment. But most of them didn't care, so they had neutral to negative opinions about the encampment. In other faculties, people tend to be more politically involved. Your average Arts student was likely much more involved than your average CS student.

[skyblue]

Thanks so much for the video. This was way too real - I had similar feelings about the uni but I felt like I was mostly alone with what I thought. Though UW has some serious problems (suing its own students for "trespassing", always siding with employers when students are getting screwed over by them etc.), a lot of my time here I was more so upset with the students. My biggest pet peeve is when people I'm barely close with ask about what I'm being paid at my coop way before anything else about what I'm up to or anything like that. I literally once got told "I'm sure whatever you're doing isn't worth that much money". ???. (This person barely knew anything about what my job was or what I could do, not that that matters). Someone was talking about how they had a hard time in a course and someone out of nowhere came in and said "Thank god you weren't in MY ADVANCED section of that course that would've been bad for you". ???. A part of it has to do with the students who get in here. Waterloo is so competitive to get into (in recent times), its almost as though something has to be wrong with you in the head to be able to make it in. A lot of kids here have grown up being only in gifted and specialized programs from elementary school to high school and never got be surrounded by a diverse group of people with different values and morals, and they carry that narrow attitude / behavior into uni. The students need to do their part too.

[wisdom_of_a_cat]

Hi,
Non-Waterloo Student here
I study CS and my school isn't as grindy as Waterloo is, but it's really easy to get consumed by the overall grindset here in North America.
Sometimes I even forget I'm just a Uni student, I'm supposed to have fun and enjoy life, not work myself to the bones. It even got to the point where my parents were worried about my mental health and urging me to take a break and do something else than career-grinding of my days. I already know how proud they are of me and how far I am for them, but it's just NOT ENOUGH when I compare myself to all those A-Grade students on LinkedIn.

I often defines myself as someone who enjoys enjoying her life and is prone to laziness, so it's totally irrational that I'm the one chasing after work to the point people around me are telling me to tone it down.

The Tech world is awesome but can also quickly become toxic if you don't pay attention.

I want to say I learned my lesson but I just got involved in another project yet again... When I was supposed to take a break during this summer.

It's almost like an addiction.

Anyway, I'll just probably burn out again and be forced to take the break I've been skipping again and again🫠

[stevenbai]

Great video, glad to hear that I'm not alone. I'm entering my 3A term in CS at waterloo and definitely I have a similar mindset of ruminating negative thoughts that are self destructive. School, coop and personal life going on at the same time can cause an unbearable amount of anxiety and burnout. Thank you for sharing your journey

[induminijayakody]

Very proud of you for sharing your story. I know this will make a huge impact

[jiasubaowenke]

Thank you so much!! I’m a high school student in Canada and I believe I wanna go to the university which can make live a happy life instead of destroying my mental health😢

[maxwellhunt]

What a great video. As a second year CS student at Waterloo this hit really hard. I think the biggest surprise I had when I got to Waterloo was the culture. I thought that everyone would be really excited to learn about Math & CS but I found almost immediately when I got here that almost no one cared at all about this stuff at all. Instead they were all just here to grind as hard as possible to get the best job humanly achievable, and they were fully willing to subject themselves to whatever they had to to get there. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but as someone who is really only able to get good at something in so much as I care about what I'm doing, I have definitely felt crushed and left behind especially since I haven't been able to land a good job at a tech company yet. Hopefully next term...

[triangle-yp]

Thank you for making this, I felt like a loser for failing to get a return offer at my dream coop, failed two job search cycles in a row with rejections for two dream jobs (one of them being Apple too) that felt written for me. I'm headed on exchange right now to delay my job search as much as possible, but I felt like I needed to see this video. At Waterloo, it really feels so easy to fall in the trap of feeling like your value and perception of others is based on where you worked or what role you had, and it feels so much worse when you fall short of those expectations. I would even hear people ask what the point of my previous coop was if I had to settle for my next coop. I really appreciate you sharing your story and I learned a lot. I pray that you will continue to heal.

[crazybird]

Years ago, it was my dream to get into Waterloo, and I actually did end up getting in, but couldn't go, because my family insisted that I live at home and attend a uni closer to where we lived. I was pretty bummed about it at the time. In my third year, I visited Waterloo to meet a friend, and instantly realized that Allah(swt) had actually saved me, because....I can't describe it, but there was depression and sadness in the air. I also happen to be a sensitive person, and realized, I couldn't have possibly survived this mental health wise.
Thank you for this video, you are doing great and Allah(swt) has a plan for each one of us; he put you through this so you could come out stronger and with better perspective on what's actually important.

[eshakumar]

so proud of you for speaking up, you are a star afshar <3

[maria_sitkovets_tech]

Maryam I’m so proud of you for posting this thoughtful video ❤ I know how hard it is to go through mental health issues and to talk about it. I didn’t go to such a hyper competitive school like Waterloo but even in any cs department you’ll always meet those really annoying kinds of people that put you down and make you feel less than them. I’m really happy that you’re feeling better and got a lot of support from your friends and family too. Thank you for posting this video and being so honest. I think it’ll help more students feel seen and help educate prospective students about what they might go through

[AKMAdib]

thank you Maryam for being honest and sharing your story!

[AdrinaEsfandiary]

Hi Maryam, thanks for this amazing video. I will start my 1A term from this September in Waterloo to study mathematics and then computational mathematics. Thank you so so much for all the things you said, not only in this video but in every other videos you made, your channel has been so helpful for me !!!

Again thank you so much for this amazing video and so proud of you.
Looking forward to your next posts :)

[LogiclySimple]

My guess is this is something localised to the CS programs specifically. I graduated tron (even though I do CS for work) and because our class was the same for the entire degree there was a strong sense of struggling and persevering together, bringing each other up. I loved my time at Waterloo, it was challenging but also rewarding and you really do not get the breadth of experiences you get here career-wise anywhere else. I also was able to do a good amount of partying, travelling, extra curriculars and meet several lifelong friends which seems uncommon among a lot of the CS alumni. You need the self-discpline to not drink all of the Cali koolaid because some (not all) of the grindset is misguided.