Is Secession Legal?

[tabletalk]

Outstanding!  Secession is legal and had been taken for granted in our early history.  Lincoln successfully waged war, but he didn't settle the issue of secession.  That issue has resurfaced and will not go away.  There is no reason to be afraid ot it.  Nations have only two things to offer each other: peace and free trade.

[simonpurist]

There's no such thing as partial sovereignty; either a state is a sovereign nation, or it's NOTHING except whatever the federal government SAYS it is; because either the state is a sovereign nation to itself, or its part of a larger sovereign nation. There's no in-between.

That's what's so comical about these guys who say "a state can nullify federal laws- IF it violates the Constitution!"
Hell, Lincoln claimed that EVERY federal law was Constitutional- and that only EXPRESS limits were valid!

[TimothyOBrien]

I'm Irish and American. I live in the State (country) of New Jersey. The federal government was never designed to be this domineering.

In Ireland, I can say that the worst thing, in some ways, we did was to join the EU. I don't know too many Irish who feel it was a good thing. Fortunately, we can secede from the EU. In the US, it seems too many people don't see the logic in smaller nation states.

[wingitprod]

God Bless you all, Dr. Woods and the work you are doing.

[RightToSelfDefense]

I think it is interesting that a congressman from Illinois in 1848 the believed that any state had moral right to secede.  That was congressman Lincoln in 1848. Also, during the War for Southern Independence at the Hampton Roads Conference it was asked by the Confederate delegates if West Virginia which had SECEDED from Virginia would remain separate or be forced to rejoin the state, and Lincoln said they could remain separate. Meanwhile, he also said that the Southern states would have to rejoin the union as a condition for the peace that the father of one of Lincoln's cabinet (Mr. Francis P. Blair, Sr)  had sought.  
So for Lincoln, West Virginia could secede but the rest of the Southern States could not.

[simonpurist]

cont.
In fact, it's income-taxation which ENABLES the rich to get richer through land, since their higher income-bracket allows them larger deductions when holding land for extended periods of time, until land-prices peak; meanwhile those at lower brackets are force to sell, since property-taxes are higher for them.

Likewise, lower property-taxes enable speculators to buy land simply to hold it, rather than putting it to actual use-- land which belongs to the PEOPLE.

Income-tax = THEFT.

[jaustin]

Secession may be inevitable in the next 10 or 15 years if we wish to survive as a people. Or we could just go quietly into extinction.

[RightToSelfDefense]

The states still retained their sovereignty when they created the federal government and the people still retained their sovereignty when the created the state governments. If the people still retain their right to "alter or abolish" their government, then they still have their sovereignty. We just may have to fight and die for it to gain it back.

[simonpurist]

That's so universally accepted that not even up for debate.

[RightToSelfDefense]

Dr Gutzman, what were the 3 states and where are links to those Ressumption (Rescission) documents?  Thanks.

[robinsss]

the logical thing for the north would have been to relinquish all rights to the rights to any property in the south and move on

[DavidWilliamsaz]

The Southern states were never sovereign according to the US Supreme Court. They declared that in 1793 1811 1816 1819 1824 1855 1863. Also George Washington and James Madison disagreed with the Unilateral right of secession.

FOUNDERS
"The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their Constitutions of Government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, 'til changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole People, is sacredly obligatory upon all."
—George Washington, "Farewell Address"
"Those who set up force again in opposition to the laws, do rebellare, that is, bring back again the state of war, and are properly rebels."
—John Locke, "Second Treatise of Government"
"And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual."
—The Articles of Confederation
"That whatever measures have a tendency to dissolve the Union, or contribute to violate or lessen the Sovereign Authority, ought to be considered as hostile to the Liberty and Independency of America, and the Authors of them treated accordingly."
—George Washington, "Circular Letter to the States"
"A firm Union will be of the utmost moment to the peace and liberty of the States as a barrier against domestic faction and insurrection."
—Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 9
"What the fate of the Constitution of the United States would be if a small proportion of States could expunge parts of it particularly valued by a large majority, can have but one answer."
—James Madison, "Letter to Edward Everett"
"The Constitution is a compact; that its text is to be expounded according to the provision for expounding it, making a part of the compact; and that none of the parties can rightfully renounce the expounding provision more than any other part."
—James Madison, "Letter to Edward Everett"

[ilmaestrovecchio]

The only argument that the Feds need to derail secession is: "What about my Social Security check?"

[bradwatson]

It's impossible to have the motivation to gain additional historical knowledge about this topic because it would never be permitted to happen.

I've often thought that even if full secession were not allowed, partial secession should be. The federal government could be rearranged to provide only military defense (paid for by a small compulsory tax), while letting the states rearrange themselves in any peaceful way, as the people see fit.

[Newellfilm]

Thomas Jefferson said that states could succeed anytime they felt the need to do so. This is coming from one of our founding fathers that wrote the declaration of independence. No less of a source than Thomas Jefferson

[simonpurist]

Tom Woods doesn't explain exactly HOW a state would secede. He says "the People in convention, " but doesn't explain exactly what this means; does it mean that they petition the legislature to propose a referendum? Does it mean that the People establish separate conventions of their own? Does it mean the People do it THROUGH their state legislators?

Exactly WHAT do they do?

If the People are sovereign, like he says, then they'd do it the same way they ratified the Constitution.

[lowpross]

I listen to your show right after the Peter Schiff Podcast. Good stuff!
Thanks!

[simonpurist]

A sales tax implies that the state is entitled to a percentage of all trade carried out within it, which implies that it owns the People performing said trade. That's like renting out a business-office on commission, i.e. nobody does it, no matter what services the landlord provides; it's a FIXED COST, and it's none of the landlord's business how much money you make.
Technically it could be done, but nobody would go for it.
But somehow the STATE can do it, because it's ACCEPTED that it owns you.

[simonpurist]

The big question is who OWNS the state.
American law holds that each state is owned in common by its respective PEOPLE, while governments are simply their hired management- like a corporation, in which the People are shareholders.
But the notion of a "stateless regime" denies the very reality of final authority.

[Soldier]

"Only a sovereign nation can secede..."
A sovereign nation cannot secede because it is already sovereign...