Is The West Set For TOTAL Civilisational Collapse? | Aaron Bastani meets John Rapley & Peter Heather

Over the course of the Fifth Century the Roman Empire collapsed. But the way in which those events unfolded is widely misunderstood. Rome’s power didn’t just decline absolutely - but relatively. As the core became more fragile, the periphery became wealthier and militarily capable.

On this episode of Downstream Aaron Bastani is joined by Peter Heather, a historian of antiquity, and John Rapley, a political economist. Their book, 'Why Empires Fall', examines the fall of the Roman Empire in a different light. Crucially, they see parallels between the events of Europe over 1500 years ago and transformations in the global economy today.

So what are the lessons from Rome’s fall? And is the ‘western empire’ headed down a similar path?

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[bilgepumpers]

Aaron Bastani is the best interviewer in the business. By far! This interview is a masterpiece. Interviewing two specialists in a very complex discipline and obviously having done the basic homework he structures the whole thing so that, at the end, all the complexities are made accessible to the rest of us. Bravo!

[cleonawallace]

I worked as a tour guide in Rome for 6 years, and studying their collapse has always made me feel we were on the precipice, so listening to this conversation was somewhat reassuring that my conclusions were not crazy. This is the kind of conversation that kids should be shown in school and then discuss...we need to change the conversation much more widely.

[_permanence]

The wealth gap and siphoning of wealth upwards to fewer and fewer people is a big cause.

[LeeJohnApeDor]

Fascinating discussion. Really enjoyed having both John and Peter there. Fantastic work from Novara.

[nathanaelsmith]

Almost got through the day without thinking about the Roman Empire - maybe tomorrow

[grinningchicken]

I just think it’s fascinating at how the leadership class of collapsing empires are usually the last to know the wheels have come off the wagon and doom is nigh

[mathquir]

Social contract works in both ways. If the people in power don't take care of the people, people turn around and find solutions. If there's no solutions anymore people turn the table over in a violent way.

[Incitetruth]

Collapses are gradual until they aren’t

[ThinkerHS]

This conversation is doubly joyful for intelligent questions and equally sharp and enlightening answers.

Fascinating that there's a congruence in Roman and American empire facing decline precisely when they seemed at their zenith.

[diegoangelotti]

we are so Western centric that we often forget that the Roman Empire survived in the form of Eastern Roman Empire (the richest provinces) until the fall of Costantinople in 1453, and what we consider Western Europe is basically the Roman Empire minus the provinces conquered by the Arabs. Still, nothing is eternal, but that was quite a long time ...

[RadiantStar]

John Rapley's contribution is very interesting and informative as he's lived in Asia. He emphasises how the developing countries contributions will continue to impact the West's slow decline. The decline is inevitable because of bad political leaders with their heads in the sand. The hubris of former colonisers prevent them from understanding their importance in the world is much less than they think. Sleepwalking into disaster.

[ghandibanks]

Palestine isn’t why she lost: Americans DO NOT vote on foreign policy. Most voters were voting on how they felt about the cost of living, wages, inflation etc

[nancylawless]

As an Australian I think about taking my three post grads and leaving for a more affordable, less neoliberal capitalist country all the time.

[pmfg]

Everyone involved has such a detailed and nuanced meta understanding that is definitely needed in America. Thank you

[julianaoyewole]

How is it that the impact of years of austerity hasn't been mentioned let alone assessed, this increased the wealth gap, the virtual flatlining of the economy. Every eminent economist as well as the L.S.E unilaterally agreed that this was a disastrous policy.

[noraurrasantana]

I really enjoyed this interview well done novara

[edwardlyons]

I did see a lecture in which the lecturer stated four components that contribute to Empires falling. 1. A dysfunctional political system. 2. Military overreach. 3. High levels of government indebtedness 4. I can't remember this reason, it might be rising inequality leading to civil unrest. The first three reasons and definitely the fourth, I seem to remember anyway, apply to America. As for 'the West', BRICS and the opportunity it affords to Africa not having to suffer Western pillaging, is starting to lead to the decline here in the West.

[alingard]

Another brilliant pod. Novarra and not too many others actually spelling out what's happening in our world.
Meanwhile.... everyone else listening to 'liars and stupid' (Peter heaths description, not mine!)

[marcbrasse]

Even before watching: I’ve been saying this for decades. The signs where and are all around us. Lack of productivity, decadence, playing the blame game, populism, etc. Everybody wants to rule the world but nobody takes responsibility.

[mcgilcol]

I would be curious to hear more about what underlying "assumptions" Rapley disagrees with vis a vis Modern Monetary Theory, because I know that the maths (and the accounting identities) are unquestionably correct. Usually with MMT detractors there is some misconception that its proponents believe that there are no limits, but that's fundamentally incorrect. There ARE limits, and they are real resource availability (including labour). There are also stringent requirements around the capacity to tax -- and right now the burgeoning billionaire class is an indication that our taxation system is no longer fit for purpose