Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:
• The rise of “product management theater”
• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions
• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice
• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry
• The most important skills for PMs to build
• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”
• The potential disruption of product management by AI
• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model
• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations

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In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Marty’s background
(04:46) His take on the state of product management
(12:08) Product management theater
(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams
(24:48) Skills of a real product manager
(29:27) The product management reckoning is here
(32:05) Taking control of your product management career
(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice
(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community
(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures
(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era
(49:44) The changing landscape of product management
(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI
(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed
(01:02:05) The product operating model
(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams
(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops
(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers
(01:18:06) Lightning round

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

[whattimeisitnow]

Marty Cagan is sometimes too theoretical but I appreciate how Lenny pushes for practical advice.

[futureskyline]

After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me:
It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization!
It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering).
To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team

[orgrinberg]

As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.

[SA-csci]

As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!

[sabke-bhagwan]

i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.

[iamparagjain]

This podcast is amazing and eye opener to lot of people who just dont understand the product and project management. Thank you Lenny & Marty

[devikottary]

Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.

[alexeyhimself]

Interviews with Marty are the ones I click "like" button first and then start watching. Thank you, Lenny! Thank you, Marty!

[JonSchleicher]

I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say.

There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working,

i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around.

There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work

[deannie]

The clarifications in this interview were refreshing, particularly when Marty defined empowered teams: Product Leaders provide the bets and Product Teams provide the solutions. So powerful. And wow Lenny, nice to know that your interviewees find your podcast as interesting as the rest of us! Way to go sir!

[BaozhaiDongme]

What are the best strategies to protect my portfolio? I've heard that a downturn will devastate the financial market, so I'm concerned about my $200k stock portfolio.

[ciocki]

And then the problems are being turned into features to deliver the outcomes.... and now ...they are feature teams that ... solved the problem and are working to deliver the outcome ... Oh the wordplay is wonderful!

[piotrpacewicz]

Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way, work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working

[wyattmadhani]

For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?

[makerphin]

Really good vision of the state of product in 2024

One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue.
One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain

[almercy]

Good interview. Here's my thoughts on 2 reasons:
1. PMs are afraid to lose a job & become order-takers instead of boiling the ocean.
2. Today, PMs who boil the ocean and do the right thing are nixed because "leadership" (layers of them) likes status quo (easy paycheck).

[tugcekasikci]

7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂
11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂

[haywardtreysparks]

As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!

[vegahw]

I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.

[FMSims]

This was great. Will be sharing this widely!