Carl Czerny: Pedantic Bach Destroyer or not? Invention n°7 (9 performers compared)

Who still cares about Carl Czerny's edition for the Keyboard Works of J.S.Bach today? Too many annotations, ridiculous tempi. Especially the latter, the often extremely fast tempi he gave for Bach fall outside every performing tradition of the last 100 years. Or not?
In this video series, I'll compare recordings (see below) of Bach's Invention n° 7 to the edition Carl Czerny made of Bach's works.

Glenn Gould, Walter Gieseking, Ton Koopman, Gustav Leonhardt, Valentina Lisitsa, Marcelle Meyer,Tatyana Nikolayeva, Andras Schiff, Wim Winters

0:00 introduction
0:59 The (surprising) result
2:30 overview performances
4:17 138 is the Hammerklavier tempo
5:55 ornamentation is complex
7:39 notation and tempo
10:14 WB/SB comparison

Related episodes

If you'd like to dive into the Czerny Bach edition yourself, be aware that for the inventions many later so-called 'reprints' use different Metronome Marks without a disclaimer. Correct tempi below

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1) Invention n°1 in C Major, BWV 772/ Czerny q=138
2) Invention n°2 in C Minor, BWV 773/ Czerny q=126
3) Invention n°3 in D Major, BWV 774/ Czerny q.=92
4) Invention n°4 in D Minor, BWV 775/ Czerny q.=84
5) Invention n°5 in Eb Major, BWV 776/ Czerny q=144
6) Invention n°6 in E Major, BWV 777/ Czerny 8.=160
7) Invention n°7 in E Minor, BWV 778/ Czerny q=138
8) Invention n°8 in F Major, BWV 779/ Czerny q=152
9) Invention n° 9 in F Minor, BWV 780/ Czerny q=126
10) Invention n°10 in G Major, BWV 781/ Czerny q=160
11) Invention n°11 in G Minor, BWV 782/ Czerny q=120
12) Invention n°12 in A Major, BWV 783/ Czerny q.=96
13) Invention n°13 in A Minor, BWV 784/ Czerny q=126
14) Invention n°14 in Bb Major, BWV 785/ Czerny q=108
15) Invention n°15 in B Minor, BWV 786/ Czerny q=120

#CzernyBach

[anthonymccarthy]

All of these have been excellent, your format in this one is both a nice variation and also one of the clearer analyses of these so far. It's remarkable how clear the musicality of the WB Czerny tempo is and how impossible the fast but still "single beat" deficient speeds are in terms of music. I am notoriously not a Glenn Gould fan, in this piece his distortion of Bach's stated intention in these pieces to teach a legato expression is extreme even for him. The fastest one is even more of a vulgar distortion. I'm really looking forward to the book, I'm expecting to learn an enormous amount about the consideration of time-signatures and note values as an indication of tempo and interpretation.

[Renshen]

The Two Part Inventions and Three Part Sinfonia (3 pt Inventions) weren't initially called by this name. They first appeared as 15 Preambulam and 14 Fantasias in W F Bach Notebooklet (the b minor 3 part Fantasia/Sinfonia is not present in this collection, and to my knowledge not removed, just not yet written) and the Fantasias precede the Preambulam (Clavierbuechlein). There is also another layout in a later manuscript copy, the Inventions and Sinfonias are paired by key signature similar to preludes and fugues. I do not have access to that copy currently.
W F Bach's Clavierbuechlein contain the only a table of ornaments in J S Bach's hand and their execution using a French system of notation. J S Bach copied French harpischordist and composer D'Anglebert's ornaments (if not all of them, and the mordent (Fr.) or mordant (Gr) is indicated differently after the fashion of N. de Gringy's Premier Livre d'Orgue (which J S Bach possessed a hand written copy and also after the fashion of F. Couperin), but the symbols match if not the exact name used and written out excecution, of D'Anglebert. Of interest, . There is no argument as to the execution in the examples which J S Bach left.
As to the ornaments, Bischoff used those found in the all or the majority of manuscripts in his addition, which I refer to (he had more manuscripts available to him, than the Bach Gesellschaft's Urtext edition in the 19th century. For the e minor Invention which has the mordents on on the first measure 3rd beat, the e on the fourth beat, the trill on the 1st beat d# 1/8 note second measure, the longer trill on the f# 4 th beat with termination, these are all authenticated in the manuscripts. From the various manuscripts the treble line has 6 additional mordents, and one additional trillo (short trill). The 10th measure has an common to all manuscripts mordent on the 4th beat e in the treble line as does the 20th measure on the 4th beat c. The 21st measure has copies a mordent (not in all manuscripts)and trill on the f# in (all manuscripts) 4th beat, a variation of the 6th measure pattern. The penultimate measure has a mordent 4th beat mordent on the b (not common to all manuscripts). There are 4 additional mordents in the bass line not common to all manuscripts, one copying the first measure, the rest in the left would make Lisitsa task even more difficult. However, I might add that J S Bach never finished composing a piece, and not only young students (such as his sons), but his later students study at the Leipzig University, likewise studied the pieces, made copies, the ornaments not common to all manuscripts could reflect this J S Bach changing his mind. As I have mentioned, J S Bach wrote earlier versions (frequently better). An example from his student Gerber of the French Suites which were re-written in his student and future son in law copied the later, and I might add simpler or more "classical or Roccoco version" most of us know such as the G major Sarabande. In one of Andras Schiff's recordings, of the G major Sarabande, Schiff uses the "simpler" version (newer) for the first playing of the B section, and the earlier (and to my mind better and more emotion filled) version on the repeat. Even the earlier version with the extensive use of triplets over several measure has a variant in which repeated notes are tied. Czerny omitted the mordant on the first measure, first base note, which is found in all manuscripts.
J S Bach's 1720's students made copies of the inventions Gerber and Sporh manuscripts (Gerber also copied much, much more, earlier versions of the English and French Suites for harpsichord, and his copy of the WTC Pt one follows a completely different ordering method of listing the preludes and fugues than J S Bach's final method, with the earliest versions of the C major Fugue, etc, found also in Bach's distant cousin's manuscript.), there's a copy that once belonged to J. N. Forker, another to Griepenkerl. As to the 1723 Spohr manuscript there are some "errors in script" (mistakes in copying), but supports J S Bach's autograph otherwise.
There's another possiblity about the added ornaments, these ornaments are on similar patterns of notes, and may well have been implied (and not written).
I hope this clarifies that in the e minor the 4th beat ornaments come from the hand of J S Bach. This type of melody not starting on the beat has been called a "feminine line" by one author, (masculine being on the beat) and the melody appears to end on the first 1/8 note or the next measure to repeat the sequence. One might say this was to shift the emphasis from the accompaniment in the bass, and frankly the piece played at a slower speed is more introspective, ergo the ornaments were there to accent and add beauty to a plaintive line or wistful line (a lost love, a regret), completely in line with the cantabile/singing style similar to an aria in a cantata in which the singer is accompanied by a basso continuo of Cello and harpsichord.
A footnote, Bischoff lists the tempo as Andante con moto, single beat 1/4=69 bpm which is exactly half of Czerny's mm indication in single beat or exactly the same tempo in whole beat interpretation and within the limits of C (Tempo Ordinario), which would be considered Allegro tempo in the Baroque period, but not with the words Allegro as written. Then again, the whole definition of Italian terms, as well as metronome scales had shifted by the end of the Victorian period as compared to the earlier metronome marks. A possible side effect of concert pianists "playing like charlatans?"
Well that's my take on the e-minor invention. I would surely enjoy hearing your opinions.

[Renshen]

Addendum Czerny omitted the first mordant in the first bass note in his edition which is found in all manuscripts.

[Renshen]

H.G.M. Darnköhler
n.d.(ca.1745) copy of the Inventions and Sinfonias with the preface of J S Bach's Invention, of interest, Darnköhler
's copy of the 7th invention lists the time signature erroneously, not as 3/4 but as 9/8(!), possible he meant to write 6/8. The title page to the Inventions and Sinfonia is in French as written for pour le Clavecin, for the Harpsichord. (Sorry about that Wim)

[Remi-B-Goode]

Ah cool! thanks for the interesting vid!

[JérémyPresle]

Remember guys, those are called by Czerny himself easy pieces!

[thomashughes]

Pend. Crotchet = 7 3/8" ou 19 cm; T = .87 second minute parts of the hour. Nice! Prove me wrong!

[DenisFalqueto]

Hello, Mr Winters. I would like to leave two remarks:

1. I believe that Single Beat is possible for this piece. But it's extremely ugly! And, of course, not directed at an student at all.

2. I was thinking about Single Beat vs Double Beat and metronomes the other day. I agree with your points pretty much, but was thinking also that metronomes are one source (of many) of this confusion. What I mean is that, if there was a metronome that ticked in whole beat, that would solve the problem and would not generate any doubt. Shouldn't the great engineers that devised the metronome have thought about a mechanism that only produce sound in one direction of the stick? What do you think about that? Would a dampening mechanism steal the energy of the stick, so the metronome would stop earlier? Is it possible to construct such a metronome?

[thomashughes]

'Tis obvious that the three-year-old Mozart was able to play better than EVERY main-dream artist of today! The sad part is that the Monarch at the time in England hadn't knighted him like these other posers! PFFT! Life's fair!

[michaelnancyamsden]

Just because someone can play that fast...Czerny in single beat.... doesn't make it musical. If these tempi were meant to be, all of us, dedicated amateurs should just stop playing and garden. I feel anger at these impossible goals. Home evening music was not the virtuoso performance. Someone somewhere decided to trash reason. I have seen this cavalier attitude in medicine. Big powerful(not earned, but powerful doctor) teacher claimed stuff that I knew impossible to say when an M3 student. Lack of humility, hunger for power, and desire for hero worship cause trouble everywhere.

[johnpickering]

This fascinating, reminds me of Charles Cook's repeated witticism: why did Czerny write so many millions of unlistenable notes? Because he hated little children.