Rod's Rant on X-Wing Second Edition

Tell us what you think about the announcement of the new version of X-Wing and the cost of the conversion packs.

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[boardgamecloset]

Thanks for all the comments and discussion. Just be nice to each other :)

[mattlowder]

I'm so glad that at least one person of the 10 or more board game media sites I follow has the balls to finally say something about this.

[ZandorJhayme]

While I understand this is a just “rant” video, some things I agree / disagree with and some clarifications:

1 - “They are re-doing these ships, so all the ships I have are going to be obsolete… potentially, right?” – Not really. For existing owners, all models and plastic components are compatible with 2.0, only the cardboard elements need updating with the conversion kits. The core kit is required for rules, new tokens and damage deck. Also there is nothing preventing you from still playing X-Wing 1.0.

2 - “[…] so they are gonna do another Slave 1, so to me that’s just a money grab? What else could it be?” – No. If you already own the Slave 1, all you need is the conversion kit. The re-release of ships like the Slave 1 is just a re-packaging (sometimes with aesthetic updates) for 2.0 aimed at new players who don’t already own the Slave 1.

3 - “Maybe they could come out with a deck of cards for each ship” – this I am on the fence. A conversion kit for existing players may not cover all the ships of one faction they own *or* there may be excess of other ships. However individually sold components will almost always cost more *per ship / per item* than having them bundled together, not just for FFG but for a majority of consumers.

HANDY TIP: Some sellers are making split up conversion kits per-ship components available separately through pre-order. I also imagine once they hit stores more people will split them and have them available on Amazon / eBay / Facebook individually.

4 – You make an (odd) "bet" that, in the given example, that the conversion kit Millennium Falcon cardboard ship base could be different than the one in the separate re-packaged 2.0 Millennium Falcon expansion. Not only does this make no sense from a game design or production sense, but from day one FFG panels have discussed how and why they refined and minimised the design layout for all cardboard components. Someone even got an early release T-65 X-Wing pack and unboxed it on YouTube; everything is the same as what you would get in the core / conversion kits.

NOTE: I’ll be honest, for a board game reviewing channel I was disappointed seeing such a wild assumption that some viewers (who may not have done much prior research) may take this as an educated perspective. Understandable it’s just a short personal “rant” video, but when the facts like above have been presented from the start, it feels sloppy and could mislead some viewers, or at least unfairly cast a negative light on an aspect of the game.

5 – Most of the rant seems focused on the price and “money grab” tactics of FFG. While no-one can deny the importance of costs investing in any hobby, I personally think that FFG have done this in the least impacting way as they could. Considering they chose to try to revitalise 6 YEARS worth of a game - and the abundance of content that comes with it - they could have done much worse (change model scale, change maneuver pieces, expensive rule books, etc).

EXCEPTIONS:
> While splitting the Resistance and First Order into their own factions thematically makes sense, I don’t see why they didn’t bundle those into the Rebel / Imperial conversion sets. There are only a couple of ships in those factions, while Scum still get the Quadjumper… But for players who aren’t going to continue with those newer factions going forward it may save them some dollars, so it goes both ways.
> At the very least, they have said the Resistance / First Order conversion kits will cost less because there are less ships and components. I bet they will release some new ships to accompany them though, like the Resistance RZ-2 A-Wing.
> Getting existing players to buy a new Core set feels unnecessary; all they need is a new damage deck, and could get the rules digitally. Most other components can either be used from 1.0 or gain in the conversion kits.

6 – Cost wise for existing players, buying conversion kits still works out to be only a SMALL FRACTION of the cost compared to if starting from absolute scratch. Some calculations somebody else did were if you purchased the same number of *individual ship packs* that are covered in the Rebel conversion kit, the RRP value would be around $703.25 USD… that makes the conversion kit only about 7% of that cost at only $50 USD. I’d much rather buy a conversion kit over paying that much all over again for just one faction.

7 – Putting costs aside, what really shines is the amount of positive changes, fixes and future “quality of life” choices they have made. I would MUCH prefer a more refined, balanced and adaptable version of *any* game that I enjoy to play if it still managed to keep the core game mechanics functioning the same as what got me interested in the game in the first place.

Where X-Wing 1.0 currently sits is most newer expansions have introduced too much power creep or game mechanic abuse; too many dice, token and rule modifications. Even for casual play some ships and specific pilots are phenomenally more potent than other older less updated ships. Some of the rules and FAQ adjustments attached take a lot of wind out of casual player’s sails. X-Wing 2.0 is a great opportunity to wipe that slate clean, especially now they have a stronger focus on more consistent rules wording.

8 - Another thing worth noting is that they announced all future ship expansion packs will now feature the same generic upgrade cards in each pack across all factions in that wave; no more cases of (for example) an Imperial player (for example that flies TIE Interceptors) needing to buy Scum faction ships (eg: StarViper) to just get some upgrades that only come with that ship (eg: Autothrusters).

In closing, I think there is more to consider with this Second Edition than just the raw cost to upgrade. While it may initially seem like a money grab ploy - while we don't live in a reality where they could just hand these out for free - I can think of many worse ways they could have done it with a lot less effort and with no care about a balanced / progressive game.

I think for the "regular guy" they may not sink nearly $200 into it straight away, but they may not need to depending on their background and if they are previously invested or not, at least there are options available to cover most of those situations. For me (substantially owning all 3 factions) the X-Wing 2.0 costs are more than worth it to improve and keep a good game alive, both competitively and casually.

[brandonwilson]

I'm not a competitive x-wing player. I play casually with my wife. We haven't played x-wing in quite a while, as the system just became overwhelming. Cards were getting wordier, abilities were becoming convoluted, and fixes to ships required too much errata to keep up with. Even for casual play, the system was broken. I just wanted to have fun and fly a few x-wings, but the T-65 is horrible in its current state. The game was no longer about flying ships, it was about rules-crafting a deck of upgrade cards to put on a ship. I am SOOO happy to hear about a reboot. X-wing needed this. And yeah, you have to pay a little bit of money to stay current, but at least they're not making you rebuy every ship.

[AuxArcClimbing]

The game needed an update. I'm sure there's some money grabbing involved but so many of the old ships weren't seeing the table even when I was playing so I'm glad to see some balancing. Games that don't get new editions become dead games. The upgrade kits are going to be rough though. All those spam lists like the TIE swarm will need more than one imperial kit.

The app will get some flak too. Some games are already doing it though and I think it's the future. With a quick app update, FFG can change point values and nerf or buff various cards, and since the card doesn't have a point value on it printed anymore, it's not obsolete.

The part in the FAQ about rotating cards and ships in and out of competitive play is a bit frustrating though. A little GW-esque. Overall I think it's good for the health of the game until they start making major rule and format changes.

[ZedLeppelin]

No-one is forcing you to spend $200 all at once; you can easily get it bit-by-bit. I know it's only a rant, but the game desperately needed a fix; there's no way of doing that without some cost involved. FFG also didn't need to supply conversion kits at all; they could easily turn around and make you re-buy everything again. Just buying all the ships again to use everything in the kit would cost over $650, yet you can get over 30 new ships, with updated rules and mechanics for $50; seems like a decent deal to me

[thediceodyssey]

This may sound can tell these days) but I sure hope they don't do this to really love that system too. I'm torn on my thoughts about this because I really enjoy X-wing but I don't have a stake in competition, but I know people who do. Man that's a money sink either way cause a ton of money is spent before 2nd edition and then you gotta shell out more cash. They have every right to do it in terms of free trade, but people will vote what they want with their wallets. That's the best way to splain how you feel.

[DutchYoda]

I was planning to start with X-wing. So this doesn't aplly to me since I can wait till 2.0 hits my FLGS.
But I understand the frustrations of the people already invested in the game.

[urloony]

The sad part is $200 is the bare minimum. We all know it's going to a LOT More. Rebels x2 $100 + Empire x2 +100, Scum $50, Epic ships +$50, Resistance +$50, New Order +$50. This is just the beginning, by wave 2 and 3 old ships will show up that we already have with cards not available in the conversion kits.

[aaronau]

Having seen all the rule cleanups and changes to the mechanics I am more than happy to pay to keep the lifespan of this game I love going. This means cooler abilities and upgrades going forward because they have given themselves so much more design space. No more worrying about future upgrades making older pilots more OP than they already are. On the fly points cost changing in the app means game balancing will be a piece of cake. No more bloated FAQ errata needed.

Also as many have also pointed out, the starting cost to convert is NOT $200. You buy one new core set and one conversion kit and you are good to go. Unless you have a psychological condition where you need to have the ability to field every single ship at one time even if you can't play them all at once.

"Oh but I have previously spent well over $1000 on buying 4 of every ship and I will need multiple packs to play everything"

If you've already voluntarily spent THAT much on X-wing as a hobby... I'm not sure FFG is to blame for you bleeding cash

[mrbrianparker]

I'm going to continue playing but only the original version. I only play for fun not tournaments and it's still a really great space dogfighting game. I've invested a fair bit over the years (around 100 ships, extra dice, two original and two first order core sets) so I'm sticking with what I have.

[leetaylor]

The reboot is absolutely necessary for a competitive game format.

[KrayyNZ]

man, I really look forward to Rods Rants. Protecting the little guy (and some bigger guys) from these cash grabs. Thank god I never got the x wing bug.

[brandonwilson]

For the record, there is quite a bit of speculation and misinformation presented in this video. I do understand that there is a lot of speculation (and I also appreciate you mentioning that it is just speculation), and nobody can know for sure how it will all play-out. However, there are a couple of interviews that exist now with the co-creators of x-wing 2.0 that answer a lot of these questions. They're worth watching before jumping to conclusions and getting angry :)

[kierheyl]

I think X-Wing 2nd Edition fixes a LOT of issues I had with the game. It gets the game back to its roots. It fixes turrets, it keeps your ace pilots ace, it makes it a game about dog fighting again. I don't think this is a cash grab. I think you can watch any of the interviews, and blogs with the developers of the game, and it's extremely apparent that they LOVE this game and want to make it the best it can be. I don't think 2nd edition is a cash grab. I don't think there was ever going to be a smooth way to transition to 2nd edition that would make everyone happy. I think the way they're handling it is the best way they possibly could. Yes, $190 is a lot to pay to upgrade your entire collection, but assuming you even only have 5 basic small ships in each faction the cost to replace those ships outright would be $225 and that's at current prices.

[semiomniscience]

I am done with FFG X-Wing Miniatures. DONE. Thanks Rod for somebody saying what everyone is actually thinking. FFG sucks.

[mattberry]

The key thing for me is v2 is fixing the power creep that destroyed the fun in the fame the last 17 months. It needed to happen to rebalance the game. However, they should have put the new damage deck in the uograde kits. Oh and casual guys generally don't collect all three factions so only one upgrade kit is needed.

[Meeple-Konrad]

This doesn't affect what I own. The game still works. Unless I play competitively, nothing changes for me other than I don't need to give FF more of your money for new waves of ships (when there already are plenty).

They'll come out with a new Slave I because you're going to have a new game with new and updated mechanics. So a company can't continue to sell old versions of the ships with old cards, etc to new players. Now new players would need to buy a conversion kit. -- Disney won't care. Disney Infinity was pretty close to the same cash cow. You have a choice: be satisfied with your version. or go to version 2. but no one is MAKING you do that. It's like Mansions of Madness 2nd edition. Nothing stopped you from playing your first edition anymore. But if you want to play with the new mechanics... well, you need to upgrade. Competive play constantly sees this. There are plenty of outdated decks in MtG or Pokemon. People spent hundreds of dollars and can no longer use their old cards. I think the conversion kits are actually relatively nice to offer, not forcing you to start completely over.

They could say (like other miniture and CCGs do) -- "ALRIGHT! ALL YOUR OLD STUFF IS DONE. If you want to do this at all, you're gonna need to start completely from scratch."

At this point, you only need to buy the new stuff if you want to play the new rules. And after 6 years, I can understand that they wanted to update and improve the system. If you're not competitive... your current game doesn't become unusable.

I think about my primary collectable game from a few years ago: Heroscape. If Hasboro came out and said: "Alright, we're reprinting Heroscape with updated rules and attribute changes." I'd be pretty happy. If they said it would be compatible with my TONAGE of old stuff with the use of several conversion kits.... I'd probably pay it to move forward with one of my favorite games.

If I didn't want to pay it... if i said "No, i'm not willing to buy the conversion kits. I have already invested in this game and I don't want to buy the new game because I'd have to start over".... well that's my choice. Also... I can still play my current Heroscape as is. I don't NEED to continue. I don't NEED to keep getting more and more and more and more characters. It's your choice whether you'll be satisfied with what you got, or move forward. But I don't think this is a cash grab. If they do a new version every year... ok.... i see how that would be. but saying "Well, it's been 6 years. We can probably improve this game." -- I don't see that any different that many things in life that gets updated as time goes on.

[ENTPDuelist]

Thank fuck I'm not the only one ranting about this.

[turks]

I am so glad I never go it X-Wing. Asmodee's business practices are a big reason that I find that I buy fewer and fewer of Fantasy Flights Games since Asmodee took them over, they look great and may be fun, but overall they seem to just be a giant money sink is most cases. Maybe I'll come back to them someday, but for now I am taking more money elsewhere.