Dalek Bumps Question Time: Series 2, Episode 4

In this episode of Dalek Bumps Question Time, we cover a variety of topics posted to the Dalek Bumps Discord by my viewers, including the Paradigm Daleks' eyestalk, Lord of the Rings, my favourite movie starring an actor who played the Doctor, and the future of the Time Lords

All footage is the property of the BBC. Music by Martin O'Donnell

[idontlikeitproductions]

I think a lot of people had an expectation set about the Time Lords and Gallifrey from when the Tenth Doctor describes it to Martha. And a lot of fans wouldn’t have seen classic Who and had no idea of what the society was truly like.
And like, considering all the things the Time Lords put the Doctor through, the sham trial, flat out executing the Second Doctor, in a way, the Tenth Doctor’s description of the Time Lords and Gallifrey reads chillingly like someone getting nostalgic over an abusive ex, like actively choosing to not remember them as the monsters that hurt him.

[bigmansomm]

I respect your take on the timeless child, i would say my issue with the timeless child is less that it changes timelord lore and frames them as corrupt (cause thats being happening since their introduction), or the idea of the doctor being a ‘christ like’ figure- its moreso that it makes the doctor ‘important’.

I like the emotional aspect of the doctor being abandoned and adopted is good and im glad its the line thats being followed in the new series. I also like the idea of the timelords having stolen the ability of regeneration because it’s very in-character. But i believe making the doctor the one it was taken from is uninteresting and basic. The doctor being considered a lesser unremarkable member of their species, who simply got bored and ran off to explore is what makes them the doctor to me. They become important because of their action, their random decision to be different from the majority of their species.

The timeless child makes the doctor (even if as a result of other parties) objectively the most important person in the history of gallifrey, whose unique ability timelord society was constructed on the back of. It also even if unintentionally creates the very bland idea that the doctor isn’t different by chance but different because they are literally a different being to all other members of their species. I also personally disagree that it adds more mystery to their backstory as reveals just as many details as it obscures. Now the doctor has a confirmed adopted mother, it shows said person finding them, shows plentiful pre-leaving gallifrey incarnations and tells us what their job was before their mind-wipe.

Also it implies that the phone box tardis and the name the doctor were predetermined before the events of the the first doctors life, which just doesn’t makes sense at best and at worst makes those events less important.

To cap off honestly all that aside my biggest issue that is by far the most important is that it’s presented very badly. The episode the reveal happens in is essentially a high production power-point presentation about the new timelord lore. It doesn’t result in or contribute to an interesting story in the context of the episode. No to mention the conclusion of the characteraspect in the same story is the doctor telling themselves immediately after learning the information that it doesn’t matter and getting over it. Now that is in character as a conclusion but theres no journey or interesting dilemma or character traits explored- they’re told this information then have one major scene of self doubt only to get over it immediately rendering them learning it pointless. Then the episodes conflict caps off with a worse version of the ending of parting of the ways.

[PerovNigma]

I think the Paradigm eyestalk was inconsistently organic. A lot of the time, it just looks like another electronic one.

[mr.valeyard]

Omg someone finally put it into words! I absolutely agree with your point about the Timelords and the Timeless Child

[therandolorian]

And my most controversial Doctor Who opinion

The time war was a mistake.
I like the concept, and it made dramatic sense to get rid of the timelords temporarily, but I don't think the daleks where a good choice as opponents. The 80s series established the idea that the Daleks, Cybermen, and the rest, where small poatos compared to the timelords. If the daleks had declared war on the timelords, they could've wiped them out in an instant. Yes I know their on screen portrayal wasn't always up to snuff, but I liked the idea of the Timelords as these godlike beings, so much more powerful than anyone else, above everyone else. Heck, as a kid i even had a head cannon theory that Galifray wasn't even in the universe, existing outside spacetime itself. Whereas the daleks, scared as the timelords where of them, are still just a mortal race like humans. So sorry dalek bumps, but I don't think the daleks could have stood up to the timelords. No, I think a species powerful enough to fight the timelords in a time war, would have to be a Lovecraftian demon monster, which the daleks, are not. As it is, the time war both made the Daleks stronger, to a ridiculous level, and weakened the timelords. Wile I like the dalek/Doctor drama in causes, I don't like the war itself.

There, opinion stated, please go easy on me 😅

[itskevinjustkevin]

Maybe that story in regards of susan and the time lord refugees could be called "an unearthly reunion"

[Just-Plain-Potential]

I should really have watched this channel before animating my Dalek animation, cos I have missed quite a few facts on the creatures AND...Bumps' story ideas (like the what ifs) are actually rather brilliant.

[JimmyBlether]

That ridiculous grin from grant in the "doctors outside of who" section lmao

[thdoctor]

Great points about Gallifrey, and nice ideas about how to continue their story

[stuff]

I saw whilst you were talking about the Timeless Child, you seemed to flash up "Clue: Omelas" in the corner of the screen. I'm a big fan of that story, and it really struck a chord that you mentioned it here. You're right - the Doctor is a bit like the forsaken child in that story, with them being abused to give the Time Lords their eternal happiness (in the form of regeneration)
Could you talk more about how you came up with this and the thematic parallels you see between the two stories? I'd be very interested.

[paladinboyd]

100% agree about the time lords, it would have been better if they were not brought back, plus it would have a level of meta development of the doctor missing them and seeing them as better than they were, then you watch classic who and see the Time lords for what they really were, corrupt and morally bankrupt and realise the doctor is choosing to remember the good.

[rlmccormack]

The Doctor being a Time Lord was never a bad move.

[CleverCrumbish]

I agree with your point about the time lords in general but I think part of the problem is it's always treated as an all-or-nothing type thing when what people actually want subconsciously is a gallifreyan society that no longer exists in a way that the Doctor can access or has to worry about but continues to create or at least maintain renegade time lords. Wiping them out completely so that only the Master (and the Doctor, though post Timeless Child we can only really say they're a "Time Lord" in the sense of upbringing and the fact that the Shobogans sort of made themselves into whatever the Doctor was to become the Time Lords, rather than the other way around) exist puts all the responsibility of tangling with the Doctor from a Time Lord perspective out in the universe squarely on the Master's shoulders.

It seems like allowing the possibility for other renegades to exist like the Rani and Corsair (and perhaps more tenuously canon individuals like the Monk and the Multitude) to exist would be more interesting, and serve to defuse the opposite problem a little- which is that a universe where the timelords pointedly don't exist except for the Doctor and the Master is just as narratively disruptive as one where they do- everything becomes about those two being the last of the Time Lords because it's an inherently traumatic thing for them to be that would (and throughout RTD1 did) weigh on the Doctor's mind a lot. To that end it's possible that Moffat's interim solution of Gallifrey being locked away in a pocket universe, safe and sound but inaccessible, could be the best idea. Unfortunately it didn't stick, though I actually don't quite remember why, I'm a bit fuzzy on that particular era of the show.

I also agree with you that Chibnall's way of doing it wasn't the best. It was heavy handed and had a sense of hyperactive scatterbrained writing to it. The Master destroys the time lords- all of them, a thing that previously only a very very specifically narratively positioned Doctor and Every Dalek In Existence Working Together have been shown as capable of doing- offscreen and apparently without difficulty, and the resultant plotline is much more concerned with WHY he did this rather than HOW. I agree that WHY is probably the bigger and more important question, but HOW is given no screen time at all to the point where the entire plot point feels like a gigantic asspull that serves only the objective of the retcon. It's very inelegant and it's not surprising it annoyed people.

[RingandRaven]

Ooooh, opinions here.

I think you are right in some aspects but also missing why the Timeless Child pisses people off *so much*. Warning rant incoming, feel free to ignore if you're not interested :D

I would one hundred percent agree that the Time Lords presence is not necessary in the story, much as they were always a personal favourite even from before NuWho for me. If the show doesn't want to use them then you kinda hit the nail on the head there that it could just *not use them*. I would even agree that they should be left alone for a good while as they were being overused, that using them in new and interesting ways would be good, and I also agree with injecting some more mystery in the Doctor in principle. But what Chibnall wrote pushed a *whole* lot of buttons.

1) people rarely like retcons - there are absolutely ways you can inject mystery into the character, but 'everything they thought they knew was a lie' has been done to death by other stories and its almost never satisfying - partly because people who are fans tend to *like* what was done before, and finding out it was all a lie never makes the audience feel good.

2) The Jesus thing - its not so much that he is the chosen one of the Time Lords, as you said they aren't required narratively for the story - but if we're going to talk about stuff NuWho has done that isn't in keeping with how things were portrayed before, The Doctor being *special* was a thing Davies introduced - after a little bit of initial mystery the Doctor was smart and capable yes but he wasn't *special* - well not until McCoy, and the Cartmel Master Plan was really just a few vague hints rather than a *plan* (and the version in the books after was...not good). The Tennant era was rightly criticised for leaning too hard into this

3) And I consider this by *far* the most important - stories matter to people, and good stories produce emotional investment. And whilst Gallifrey may never have been more than 'huh, neat' in the classic era, in the modern era you had 15 years of it being extremely important, and arguably the emotional core of the show for the first half of it. People were literally raised on the idea that Gallifrey mattered to this character that they loved - being the last of his kind was supremely important and influenced everything about the Doctor, and the story arc leading up to Gallifrey's survival in Day of the Doctor was very well done on a character level and given the emotional weight that it deserved - not because the Time Lords are required to show up, but because of the impact their existence has on the Doctor. Moffat then fumbled a bit after that where things are set up for a search for Gallifrey they kinda peters out, but thats less a drastic problem than it is simply not capitalising on potential.

What Timeless Child then does is reveal they were all killed off screen, then killed again by turning them into cybermen, then killed AGAIN by every last living thing wiped out, just to really grind the boot in. That alone is annoying enough for anyone actually invested in the story, but neither the Doctor in universe, nor the story itself out of universe, really seems to *care* The story is going 'whoops, the time lords are dead again, but don't worry it doesn't *matter* because this character you liked was someone else the whole time, pay attention to the new shiny rewrite'

Its quite honestly one of the most insulting things I have ever seen a long running show do, and seeing the character go from 'I am wracked with guilt over all the innocents I killed because I was forced to' to 'eh, all the kids are dead again and I guess I'll look a bit sad, but this mystery is more important' is....atrocious writing. It also just comes across as mean spirited, and that rarely goes over well.

There are ways this exact plot could have been written that would have treated it with the severity it deserved, and I might not have been personally fond if the retcon but it wouldn't have felt like Chibnall was pissing on everything that came before whilst actively flipping off the audience just so he could rewrite the main character into someone completely different as part of a badly written fix-fic. Which to be clear is very likely an unfair accusation at someone trying their best with production issues behind the scenes. But perception matters and thats how the episode feels to a lot of people watching.

The individual plot of the story is okay, but the emotional context is a massive problem. If it had had some rewrites instead of being functionally a first draft as I have heard a lot of the Chibnall ones were due to production issues, it might have managed to thread the needle of putting the changes in without feeling like its intentionally spiteful.

4) it also kills story potential. Post Hell Bent you could either not have the Time Lords appearing at all, and settle into a new status quo where they're alive and safe but absent from the story, OR you can actually do something interesting with them surviving diminished at the edge of time, or having some of them disperse and maybe introduce more actual characters for the Doctor to occasionally run into. There is quite literally an infinite number of things you could do with the time lords now they're not dead - including having the rest of the timeless child arc! Nothing about the revelation of the Doctor's past needed to be set on gallifrey in the ruins of the Citadel, the master could have revealed this anywhere and it would even give a perfect reason for the Doctor to not be interested in going back there! That would have been infinitely better, and it would open up more potential for whether or not the Doctor will meet them again and how they'll react

Killing them off again is both killing any potential for further story or development, and feels like a repetive reset to previous status quo, with a side order of 'oh you liked these guys and were happy with the emotional catharsis? Fuck you' (sorry that's an extension of point three again) 'huh, neat' in the classic era, in the modern era you had 15 years of it being extremely important, and arguably the emotional core of the show for the first half of it. People were literally raised on the idea that Gallifrey mattered to this character that they loved - being the last of his kind was supremely important and influenced everything about the Doctor, and the story arc leading up to Gallifrey's survival in Day of the Doctor was very well done on a character level and given the emotional weight that it deserved - not because the Time Lords are required to show up, but because of the impact their existence has on the Doctor. Moffat then fumbled a bit after that where things are set up for a search for Gallifrey they kinda peters out, but thats less a drastic problem than it is simply not capitalising on potential.

[BH-]

To me the reason the time lords & a lot of stories where they’re the focus are dull is because the Doctor finds them boring. If the main character (or even the writers) doesn’t care about them then why should we?

I do think they’re important in that their society provides a great contrast & reason why the Doctor is the way they are. But story potential wise the only thing I was interested in was the Doctor finding Gallifrey after saving it in Day of the Doctor but that story was squandered in Hell Bent & the decision to destroy it again just felt like a lazy retread of returning it to the series 1-7 status quo.

[emperorremus]

Public Service Announcement! Reminder, that ALL BRAND NEW episodes of Doctor Who starring Ncuti Gatwa is going to premiere May 11, less than a week from TODAY! 😱 Mark your calendars!

[UwURainUwU]

"I read the book at least once a year" - i need to sort my sh*t out and read those books.

[Crisis]

Interestingly both of the lead actors in Withnail and I technically played the Doctor in some form- twice in Richard E Grant's case, though his incarnations are obviously non-canon

Also goes without saying, Withnail and I is a bloody fantastic film that everybody should watch

[cillianennis]

I think the only bad thing that Chris Chibnall did when he destroyed the timelords was claim they where all dead again. I think it'd make for better stories if he'd just implied the capital was destroyed & that maybe there was still others out there like other rogue timelords. I think that'd make for better stories. As the best timelords tend to be the rogue ones like the Doctor, Suzan, Romana, the Master, the Rani & Omega. The by far worst ones tend to be the nothing named grunts like the general guy in Hellbent & the other named ones in hellbent. I think they deserve to have lost there society but I think a few should be said to still live like the ones I mentioned & the Meddling monk.

[Cinemasmall]

I think it was a mistake to save gallifrey from being destroyed in the day of the doctor. That was one of the things that made me love the Russell T Davis era. That guilt and burden the doctor had to carry of killing their own people. The way their worst deed they have done in their life came back to haunt them in the form of their enemies like the daleks or the autons shows not only was what they did was in vain but also had consequences on other species not involved in the war. Speaking of the daleks that's another thing I like about gallifrey being gone. It pumped up their hatred and anger even more for the daleks. I absolutely love this relationship between them. The way the doctor was always disgusted, shocked and angered whenever they met the daleks in the Russell T Davis era was always something I loved. That went away in the Steven moffat era. They don't have that kind of reaction to them anymore and I think that's bad. it feels like they treat them like any other of their enemies not like their arch enemies which they are. Also a lot of scenes with the doctor angry at the daleks gave us some of the doctors their best acting moments like Matt Smith in victory of the daleks when he starts to attack one. My point is I think it worked better for the doctor's character and especially their relationship with the daleks when gallifrey was gone.