Energy storage

What happens if we have a lot of weather-dependent production in the electrical grid? While the total amount of energy produced can be matched, there will almost always be surplus of deficiency of production, as Mother nature decides when electricity is produced.

In this episode of the "Sustainability trends in business" (Turku School of Economics LOGS13b) we try to find possibilities to store electricity and energy. There are a lot of possible technologies from batteries to piles of sand at 600 °C and our future energy infrastructure will need different types of storage.

The incentive behind developing and scaling storage technologies is in taking advantage of the price arbitrage between different points in time. Again, some examples are shown with real-world price data.

[antfinox]

Great video very informative. I have two comments: 1- Battery cost is dropping much faster than anticipated, thanks to new chemistry and mass production (thank you China). 2 - Although solar power is far less efficient in northern climates (in winter), here again technology is improving performance to above 25% efficiency and the cost is dropping so quickly (in countries who aren’t imposing tarrifs on China) that it makes sense now to have them on every roof top.

[parkerfitzen]

Dang bro, I was in the first 200 views, it'll be cool seeing this get picked up on the algorithm and going to the thousands. Good vid

[Ikbeneengeit]

Nice video and I like your sense of humour

[hyric]

In addition to Aquifer Thermal Energy Storage, there's also Pit Thermal Energy Storage and Borehole Thermal Energy Storage as alternatives for bulk underground thermal energy storage as sensible heat.

It also looks like the power-to-gas and power-to-x routes would need to be peaking CHP plants with bulk underground thermal energy storage included. The power-to-gas and power-to-x routes could see further efficiency gains if waste heat from the synthesis process could also be captured and stored rather than just at the reconversion step.

Very interesting!

[kennethferland]

Given that in Finland your winter energy needs are HOME HEATING, the way to store solar is as THERMAL without turning it into electricity ever. Simple black-pipe on roof water heating paired with loop geothermal systems area idea for winter-2-summer heating/cooling. Combine that with some biomass burning peaking plants for winter for both heat and power and you have a robust national solution.

[johnleeinslc]

Assuming that storage needs to balance production with consumption is a very simple mistake. Producing more energy than we consume is a valid approach to reduce the need for seasonal storage.

[vgstb]

Solar energy and wind energy are synergetic, this means: in the summer there is more sun than wind and in the winter there is more wind than sun. The period when there is too little wind energy AND too little solar energy to meet the demand in electricity is called "dunkelflaute". In Europe the periods of dunkelflaute are limited to 150 to 300 hours per year. This means that 97% of the time there is sufficient solar and/or wind energy to cover the baseload demand. For the limited dunkelflaute periods we will have in the near future, the EU is planning new natural gas powered energy plants. These plants are specificaly build to have a fast start-up and the capacity will be sufficient to cover the difference between the baseload energy (solar and wind) and the demand.

[BenjiShock]

Here a few points, before I forget them (I haven't watched the whole video):
1) Solar and Wind balance really well because in the Summer there is more Solar and in the Winter there is more Wind.
2) You can use overcapacity and connected grids to balance out the demand and supply.
Of course there is a minimum cost when optimizing between storage, production and grid connectivity.
Also you didn't mention some technologies that aren't ready to be used yet like redux flow batteries, which could potentially provide very nice seasonal storages.
Also you don't need to use new lithium batteries, but rather use old ones before you recycle them or use natrium batteries or similar to reduce cost (Weight in storages doesn't matter as much)

[myceliata]

New subscriber here. Wonderful content delivered eloquently and amusingly. Very much appreciated. Looking forward to hearing more from your brain and vocal chords.

[graemetunbridge]

19:00 'before you run out and buy batteries' - too late I am in the process of installing batteries at home (AUS). Most of the costs are avoided - DIY battteries < $100 per KW Hr, no grid cost (home), inverter and battery management electronics are readily available now. My EV battery is too small ( just a bike). ie design out the grid.

[JinKee]

Mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell

[ignasanchezl]

The whole idea that overproducing solar is problematic is where the whole problem of seasonal storage originates.

More than half of the cost of solar electricity is in the electrical wiring and inverters. If simply put, you design and optimize your solar production for winter, integrate the daily battery storage into the DC circuit and simply dump the power that your inverters can't handle (and your grid doesn't need) during the summer, you solved your problem.

Forget seasonal storage, its much cheaper to throw more PV cells into the mix, without adding the inverter capacity.
This also allows the implementation of vertical bifacial solar panels, which don't need snow clearing.

[ethanwelner]

With adequate cooperation you could leave the solar panels in north Africa or southern Europe and just use bulked up transmission lines. At the right voltage there's virtually no transmission loss. But that would require countries be optimistic and not corrupt.

[taith]

From what i think would be best
Build mountns out of mining leftovers, expensive part is move it close to cities
Lay down layer by layer, while embedding metal pipes in it
Lay as many layers as you want with 20-30 degree slope
By the end cover it with thick insulation layer
During summer heat that pile by pushing electricity trough pipes, in the winter make electricity running steam turbines, and leftover heat is used for homes
Also build ski resort on top or double dip and make pump hydro lake on top

[chrisconklin]

Prof. Sustainable Business

TM 9 District heaing
Thank you for the presentation. It is true that more northern latitude countries have a greater need for energy in the winter. Long term energy needs can be supplemented by bot importing electricity into your country and also with a greater use of geothermal. Advanced geothermal electrical generation has become a very active area of development. Geothermal wells could help with district heating and electrical generation. One company is experimenting by reversing the process by heating water to reinject hotter water back into the well.

[MrPizzaman]

Or you could over produce by a few percent and throw away the excess wind and solar, like California already and other places are already doing. Then the needed storage becomes a lot lower.

[kreynolds]

Reducing metals stores a lot of energy that can be stored seasonally and provide lots of heat in the winter by oxidizing it.

[ryuuguu]

Some notes: The current battery cost is currently 50 USD/KWh, not $100. There was no mention that nuclear power needs intra-day storage. Japan which did not have access to gas built 1GW of pumped hydro generation for each 2GW of nuclear generation since the 1970s. "Global Atlas of Closed-Loop Pumped Hydro Energy Storage" published in 2021 shows that other than European nations north of Switzerland (except Norway and Scotland) suitable locations are available worldwide. Also, I am not sure why pumped hydro is shown as 1-day storage not months to years on the chart. source for 50 USD/KWh, Cleanup podcast interview with BNEF Oct 23 on YT

[philipbotha]

Nuclear is dispatchable. Only need short term storage to account for moments where demand changes faster than nuclear power plants can ramp.

[FrankReif]

Thermal storage costs are strongly correlated to scale. The larger the system, the cheaper and more efficient it becomes - due to SV ratios.

Distribution of that heat, from a central location needed for cheap storage, becomes problematic. Which is why low temp heat networks with distributed diurnal storage is becoming necessary. It can be distributed at low and efficient temperatures over a large area, then upgraded floor storage close to the demand.

Finland is a world leader in great networks. Now work out how to drop distribution temps and integrate water to water heat pumps with diurnal sensible water tank thermal storage into your architecture.