Verdi vs Wagner: the 200th birthday debate with Stephen Fry

__________________________

Think opera and you think Verdi. Verdi created some of the most beloved operas of all time, from the romantic tragedy of La traviata and Rigoletto to the Shakespearian dramas of Macbeth, Otello and Falstaff.

Verdi's music transcends the barriers between high and low culture. Many of his arias count among the greatest songs ever written, streaming out of opera houses and into football stadiums and even the charts. Verdi was also the outstanding cultural figure at the heart of the unification of Italy, the musical father of the Risorgimento. Who needs Wagner when Verdi offers such richness?

People who truly appreciate great music, say the Wagnerians. Wagner's music is on an altogether more intellectual sphere. You hum Verdi; you think Wagner. Here is opera, and music, at its epic, definitive height.

To know The Ring is to be fully immersed in opera at its greatest technical brilliance and compositional originality. To appreciate Wagner's music is not to forgive his political views, but to cast them aside in the face of irresistible, unassailable genius.

[Horichdaslicht]

Much as I love Verdi, Wagner plumbs the depths of what it is to be human in all it's nobility, frailty and self-contradiction like no other composer i have ever encountered.

[MartyMusic]

The thing that struck me as funny was when the comment was made "where would John Williams be without Verdi?"
...
Have you EVER listened to Star Wars? Williams' scoring is near-identical to a Wagnerian orchestra, and there are explicit quotations from Tristan in there. This is not to say that other influences aren't there (Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Richard Strauss in a few spots), but to suggest that Verdi had any influence on film score is just ludicrous. More than anything, Verdi more strongly influenced how musical theatre would develop, especially in how songs were written, and this is an enormous influence and shouldn't be ignored. But let's face facts: any modern orchestral score composer takes at least a couple cues from Wagner, especially due to his development of leitmotifs in concurrence with the action.

[oscargordon]

I don't see pompousness in Wagner's music at all. Nobody before or since has been able to plumb the emotional depth or inner turmoil of the characters like Wagner. As was pointed out, even the minor characters are well conceived. Mr. Hensher failed to point out that Wagner did not include box seats in Bayreuth and refused to give any privilege to the aristocracy. He was most definitely a man of the people.

[pmrossetti]

Fry's face when Verdi guy is talking cracks me up.:)

[tittletattle]

I'm afraid 'Tristan' makes this a non-contest. 'The death of Isolde' is simply incomparable in its power to move. That would be my introductory piece every time.

[ollenyren]

Absolutely one of the best shows I've ever watched, and I've gone back to it over and over again, and I get more and more convinced of Wagner's brilliance every time. The way that it is broken down and explained in detail in 1:00:22 is simply astounding and pedagogically superb!

[bingbongtoysKY]

what a BLAST!!! I love both of them- of course! this is such a good time! thank you,

[pensiring]

Wagner loves power? The whole ring is about rejecting power and greed in favour of love, it literally shows how greed and lust for power and laws and contracts and all that which symbolizes and manifests power lead to the destruction of the whole world, as in the end, Valhalla burns down and the Rhine floods the rest of the world... Wotan gets his power by cutting of a branch of the world tree, and writing his law in runes on it, but that kills the world tree and poisons the spring flowing beneath it. The whole world slowly gets corrupted because of this act. The speaker obviously confuses the canvas (gods, princes) with the words written on it.

[TheYopogo]

I'm personally disposed to agreeing with the Wagnerian side of the argument here, and that side is argued much better in this debate; but I feel I must say: Verdi is a much better composer than this debate makes it seem.

People are drawn to the instantly memorable, beautiful, singable melodies which are everywhere in his work, and he undoubtedly had a great talent for them, but this is nothing like the be all and end all of his value.
Verdi's music is profound and magnificent and utterly serious.

The similarities his music has with the melodramatic vocal flourishes and sloppy orchestration which sometimes appear in Italian opera are cosmetic only.
His music is utterly refined and meticulously balanced and it will plumb the depths of your soul every bit as much as Wagner can, if you have only the ears to listen and the heart to feel.

[borisvandruff]

I love Verdi, but Lebrecht’s tactics are disgusting here.

“Verdi is good because he’s not anti-Semitic. Wagner is bad because he’s anti-Semitic.”

There are much better metrics for gauging the genius of a composer.

[ShaneyElderberry]

The moments of fruitless rebuttal were a desperate attempt to scorn the artist and ignore the works of art - the true measure of this event. It's a pity that Verdi's music was not examined and explained as well as Wagner's was. I'm one of Wagner's rapturously devoted fans, but Verdi deserved a much better presentation.

[WBradJazz]

I wish we had such an intelligent discussion in the U.S.

[hochang]

both were great opera composers no matter what.

[karlavonhuben]

When Lebrecht called Desdemona "all bling and handbags" I wanted to kick him. I found some of his statements close to racism, and very offensive, and his "jokes" amused no one. Verdi deserved a better champion.

[johnjones]

His citation of Wagner's anti-semitism should have no bearing on the task at hand.

[gillianomotoso]

*When you realize Fry looks like Wagner when he’s shaven*

[jacac]

The BBC documentary on Verdi made a much better case for the composer than this guy. The Wagner advocate did a great work, on the other side.

[rocketrob]

The moment I heard the opening to Das Rheingold 30 years ago I fell in love 😊 I went to a symphonic performance of the ring in '98 and the look on Bernard Haitink's face seeing me in the front row with a mohican was priceless 😂

[sigalius]

Summary -
Verdi side: "Poor Jews. Wagner was not a nice man. I don't like him personally, and neither should you. Verdi wrote unaffected by the expectations of critics, who asked "Why not be more like Wagner?" Verdi captured the Italian spirit, but was never a nasty nationalist. You should like Verdi because he wrote a lot, was humble, and was a populist. Verdi is inclusive, Wagner is exclusive and elitist. No wonder he's so popular."

Wagner side: "A good man can be a bad composer, as a bad man can be a good composer. Let's talk about the music and the genius of the work. Wagner penetrates with great insight into the human psyche. Wagner weaves complexity and innovation, using myths and gods, with the goal of encapsulating very human conditions. The epitome of his innovation is the Tristan chord, which serves as the pinnacle of 19th century music. The power of his work is gripping and transformative. Wagner is maddeningly captivating."

I might add two things.
1. As other commentators have noted, the bit about Verdi and John Williams is astonishing, considering how many Wagnerian techniques John Williams uses. There's no equivocation. He argues for influence by exposure at the end, but the techniques and actual works on paper speak for themselves. There's nothing unequivocally identifiable of Verdi in John Williams. Of Wagner, the answer is easy if you just look at the structures and patterns.
2. Comparing the performance frequency of Verdi and Wagner is truly an improper comparison, because, very simply, Wagner's operas are extremely demanding (both production-wise and physically to the singers), whereas Verdi's operas (much like most composers) are sing-songy and relatively tame.

[philiproseel]

A fan of both composers, but I do believe Wagner was more influential. Rather difficult to pick a "winner". They are both giants in opera. They both feature very early in my appreciation of music, listening to old Caruso records of Verdi with my mother, and discovering Wagner's Tannhauser a few years later.