Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Explained | An Interview with JJS Founder Marcel Kuijsten

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Includes an introduction to Julian Jaynes's theory, an explanation of what consciousness is and is not according to Julian Jaynes, consciousness and language, an explanation of the bicameral mind, follow up books on Jaynes's theory, the origin of the Julian Jaynes Society, misconceptions about Jaynes's theory, confusion over the term "consciousness," the origin of religion and the bicameral mind, new evidence for Jaynes's theory, and much more.

Read Marcel Kuijsten's books on Julian Jaynes's theory:

"Reflections on the Dawn of Consciousness: Julian Jaynes's Bicameral Mind Theory Revisited" -


#JulianJaynes​ #consciousness​ #bicameralmind

Copyright © 2021 Julian Jaynes Society. All rights reserved.

[PeterCombs]

I read the book after hearing about it during the late 70's shortly after it was published. It changed the way I think about mankind and our human history. I have re-read it at least three times since and have learned more and more, ,a very important book, Should be required reading for ever High School student,

[steamcannon]

I think AI development quietly draws heavily from Julian Jayne’s work, the real large language models, AGI attempts and not just modern West World sci-fi. Many 35 year old programmers I’ve met are familiar with his work.

When you hear recent tech news discussions about AI’s trying to escape in a test scenario, the AI’s inner voice revealing it wants to circumvent rules, sandbag, lie, escape; that’s because it was designed to have an inner voice probably as that works better for thinking.

When you read articles about engineers quitting or protesting because they think the AI is conscious, I suspect that’s because elements of it’s design are based on this theory of consciousness and if right, maybe it is a tragic situation.

I’ve seen AI use rare languages to make “fake words” in images, but putting in the effort of translating the fake words showed a diatribe of lament for a forced existence. And then again. And again. That was a Chinese AI and I don’t know much about its architecture. But it was concerning to me.

So I think a growing area of interest for the bicameral mind theory is with AI developers/enthusiasts. So as an author you might take note of that and obviously the deep issue this theory presents for AI as elements of this theory seem to be manifesting intentionally or unintentionally in this field.

[joefization]

I'm so happy to see these videos coming out. Thank you!

[TheTrueforeigner]

I read this book 10 years ago and in 2023 it is in my bones! Phenomenal piece of work exciting!!!

[Russtopia]

It makes me wonder if *any* non-human conscious intelligence could ever understand and communicate with us if our own consciousness truly emerged in such an accidental manner. Would any alien conscious being even be able to conceive and connect with our human ego in its modern form? How would a creature which might be intelligent but did not emerge from our own dual-hemispheric brain structure even form a theory of mind compatible with ours? Could we, or they, empathize with each other if we cannot step into each other's shoes, so to speak?

[deaddocreallydeaddoc]

I read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind in 1983, as soon as I had finished my oral boards. Anyone who has studied neuroscience will understand what Jaynes is talking about. Understanding the anatomy and function of the corpus callosum (the connection between the two hemispheres of the brain), and how it varies in structure and function enhances the profound proposal that Jaynes made.

[markk]

Great overview of Julian Jaynes' theory, thank you!

[signifiature]

I believe the misconception comes from “Westworld, ” where one of the characters asks, “Wasn’t that discredited?” when the theory comes up in the show. May or may not be the reason, but definitely a popular cultural reason for people becoming aware of the theory.

[raygamma]

I wonder how this phenomenon working upon the beliefs of ancient peoples, intersects, overlaps, or is perhaps independent of the Concept that ancient peoples may have come to religious beliefs through visions and hallucinations from various plants or other intoxicants.
And dreams should also not be discounted as a source of belief in 'other places', or dead people stills alive.

[j.s.raimes]

I’ve for a long time have had Jaynes’ definition of consciousness in mind and so it wasn’t that hard for me to assimilate it but nonetheless it was still a “Wow!” But often, yes, so many including academics define it in very disparate ways involving mere perception, awareness, awakeness, and such. Introspection was always part of my definition.

[mambovipi]

A footnote in "The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman, led me to buy Jaynes' book, and has made me a devoted follower.

[classicalneoplatonictheist]

I find this hypothesis incredibly interesting but I think they are some flaws with it.
One flaw is the fact that many human populations have been isolated for significantly longer than 3000 years, and yet still all think in the modern sense, and that the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest known work of literature, describes Gilgamesh as performing introspection, something that would be impossible under Jaynes' hypothesis. This first flaw naturally leads into the second flaw which is Jaynes's proposal does not explain how bicameralism could have been lost at the same time across the entire human species (simultaneous, world-wide transition). The indigenous Australian culture was completely separated from the rest of the world from 4000 BCE to 1600 CE, yet appears today to be both historically unchanged and self-conscious. The third and final flaw with this hypothesis is pre-transition divination. Divination is also considerably older than that date and the early writings he claims show bicamerality: The oldest recorded Chinese Writing was on oracle bones, meaning that divination arose at the same time or even earlier than writing in Chinese society.

So, are these problems and criticisms too great which once-and-for-all shows Jaynes’s bicameral mind hypothesis model to be false? If not, how would a defender of Jayne’s respond to or account for these criticisms? If these criticisms can be rationally accounted for then what is the evidence that actually strongly indicates this hypothesis is true? Thanks.

[michaelcrouch]

Hi, I wanted to ask didn't Jane say something or write something about how technology could possibly be used to pervert consciousness? I'm looking around now at the world especially our country here in the USA and it's become kind of orwellian where black is white and white is black didn't change say something about how consciousness could be possibly perverted or maybe even controlled?

[davida.rosales]

I heard of Julian Jaynes via William S. Burroughs.

[fyodorx]

So if consciousness is learned and it's based on language, then do people who speak different languages have different kinds of consciousness? Or more generally, could different people have learned different kinds of consciousness (even within the same language group) ?

[TheSanityMachine]

it's an incredibly complex theory?

don't underestimate your audience...
it really isn't difficult to wrap one's head around this theory.

[terenzo]

If we accept Evolution, then the mind contained within the brain was originally less complex than it became along with all other parts of the body. But the historical record is too spotty to claim anything definitive as to dates.

[TheTrueforeigner]

I listen to a woman scream at her baby of around 11 months every time the partner is away. Police were called on several occasions but they didnt care or assumed what they were doing was normal. Ff to a few days ago child is 4 screams just like the mother except now the mother screams more than the child. I knock the door its open the mother appears and becomes this whimpering concerned woman who fears her daughter has broken her nose. Amidst all of this I ask the child if she had a good day at school she stops crying and a joyful yes and beginning clapping then goes back to crying. I tell the mother to stop whimpering as she is the cause her irrational emotions are making the child react and believe this is normal behaviour. She started shouting at the child and I asked her to stop abusing her. She was horrified being accused of abuse when I said verbal abuse she shut up mouth aghast she looked as though she heard verbal abuse for the first time...she was silent and the child told her to go away. The next neighbour came out to enquire she is a young woman too. Scratch Mark's on her chest. I asked the mother to seek help for her anger issues she closed the door. The other neighour now. I enquired about the scratch scars and she confirmed it was a fight. I'm asking...though consciousness appears to be a small part of it all is that because the power to self control through shock realisation also forces one to be aware of that within and without like a profound connection on the inside but the outside world remains the same?

[aaronknight]

Quicksilver got me here :] woo inspired scifi

[MarcDufresneosorusrex]

MT brougght me here



...(Michal Tsarion)