A Neglected Argument against Sola Scriptura

In this episode Trent shows how the earliest Church fathers show the Apostles did not instruct the Church to follow sola scriptura.

[cjr]

My experience with trying to debate with many non Catholics is that they refuse to even acknowledge the evidence given. They fall back in the never ending loop of "but this verse says this" followed by my rebuttal, "well this says this" followed by my rebuttal until we are back at the very beginning. Their mentality won't let them looks at things on the whole or see the big picture. It is weird and kind of sad. They treat the sculpture like a deck of cards. I even brought that up to a few and they of course said that wasn't true then commenced to start their whole game over again.

[stooch]

Sorry, it just makes logical and historical sense that sola scriptura was impossible. All the separate churches would only have the letters that were sent to them. Yes, those letters would be viewed highly…but they were mostly just used in the LITURGY to teach. It’s so obvious that it is frustrating we keep having to discuss it.

[dasan]

One thing I’ve noticed is that while citing the “church fathers” to make or prove a given point of theirs, Protestants NEVER admit anywhere that those same fathers of the Faith were CATHOLIC. Saints Jerome, Augustine and others are repeatedly referred to as “fathers” of Christianity without any admission related to their Catholicity, the result of which is that few Protestants have any real understanding of their Catholic heritage.

[NIA-]

Trent, you have done a fantastic job and you are instrumental in me converting from Lutheranism to Catholicism. Your debate with Gavin Ortlund pretty much sealed the deal for me. Thanks again!

[ellobo]

I'm still looking for that list of books in the bible saying what books should be in the bible..man this sola scriptura is confusing

[windowsscreen]

I was reformed, but now being chrismated into the Orthodox Church, but I’ve been immensely blessed by ur break down of the not so air tight sola scriptura. You’ve brought me much clarity GodBless

[matthewbroderick]

William Albrecht and Father Christian Kappes, have provided Early Church Fathers that taught the Assumption of the Mother of God, even as early as the 200's. Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[TheThreatenedSwan]

Before I was Catholic and appreciated protestant people, I thought there's no way they _actually_ believe you can just read the Bible without some authority providing the proper interpretation, right? Today I would understand they have their own traditions they follow even if they nominally deny it: sola scriptura is a semantic game. And historically protestants rested their views on succesionism and accretionism they had zero evidence for. You can see after it became embarrassing to hold to such false history why so many retreated to more of a me and my Bible low church attitude that takes their tradition even more for granted

[edweber]

I read that liturgical use in the Church was the primary reason the Church Fathers determined which books were Scripture, in the Fourth Century. Justin the Martyr describing the liturgy in 155 says on Sunday "all those who live in the cities or ... countryside gather in a common meeting, and as long as there is time the Memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read."

Liturgy ("public worship") requires someone to lead it. Those leaders have to be appointed ("ordained") by those given authority. Jesus "appointed twelve [whom he also named apostles] that they might be with him and he might send them forth to preach and to have authority to drive out demons" and to forgive sins." Saint Paul appointed Timothy to lead the Church at Ephesus. Paul told him "Command and teach these things" and "do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate."

Finally, a book doesn't exercise authority. It may be "authoritative, " but authority would be exercised by the author, who can give authority to those who follow him.

[robertopacheco]

How has "sola Scriptura" fared in church history? Did the "Bible alone" Judaizers win the day in Acts 15?! Did the "where's that in the Bible" Arians prove their case against the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son at Nicaea?! How has "sola Scriptura" fared in Protestant history? Did it resolve the theological debates between Arminius and Calvin on free will vs. predestination, or between Luther and Zwingli on the Real Presence vs. symbolic memorial in the Eucharist, or between Zwingli and the Anabaptists on infant baptism?! How did the "Bible alone" do more recently in the discussions between Zane Hodges and John MacArthur on "Lordship Salvation"? The "Bible alone" doctrine has created way more schisms in the church than it's healed, and if there's anything the Bible alone denounces it's schisms and factions!

[sdboyd]

I saw the debate. I’m still Catholic. However I ended up really liking Gavin. A good guy. However, TH and Jimmy Aiken are the two best apologists on the planet.

[Fisher]

You made a mistake in your references. In Mortal Kombat, what he’s actually saying is “Toasty” in a high falsetto that many people confuse for him saying “Whoopsie”

[marcumititelu]

The logic of Sola Scriptura, requires that all the believers should arrive at the same conclusion because there is one guiding Holy Spirit, one Scripture and there are the sincere believers that accept Jesus as Lord, there should be the same conclusions drawn on theological issues, but there are not and as a result of divergent interpretations you have 6000 theologically different denominations.

They weasel out by saying the differences are non essential. But Luther's teaching of the Eucharist is closer to the Catholic understanding than to Huldrich Zwingli, who was the first blasphemer who said the Eucharist is a symbol. Non essential differences, huh?

Worse, even if one grants them the weasel arguments about non essential differences, at least one cannot be nonessential, the understanding of the Triune God. After the Reformation, Luther, Calvin, even Zwingli recognized the Trinity, while Servetus, David Ferencz, the Socians, the Polish Brethren and later Jehova's Witness rejected it. If Sola Scriptura was supposed to be true, such divergent results, while being guided by the same Holy Spirit and reading the same Bible should be impossible.

[asgrey]

This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks! In Epsicopate and the Primacy by Rahner / Ratzinger, Ratzinger made this point (that there is a long way to go between apostolic writings and the view of them AS Scripture) and I was looking to do a deep dive on it. It was written 1961 so I was looking for a more recent exploration

[darrylbatchem]

In all my time as a protestant adhering to sola scriptura (lets face it I had no other choice or I would cease to be protestant) I came to realize the Scripture was being used in this way.

1. Make a statement of faith (eg Sola Scriptura or something else that one believes extraneous to Scripture).
2. Then stick a Book Chapter Verse in brackets at the end which sounds like it might work.
3. Hope like crazy that people believe you and don't ask questions or say hang on a minute.

I have also yet to meet the person who can truly claim to be Sola Scriptura, for if I did meet them they could no longer claim Sola Scriptura.

[lyterman]

This must have taken a ton of work. Well done, Trent. May your work bear fruit.

[thecatechumen]

Good stuff! This is a really good supplement to the debate. It was great meeting you Trent!

[juaninglis]

Anyone that believes in solo scriptura is by default in violation of that belief if they get up to preach or teach because they are adding to the words

[ericholmberg]

Great Trent. Having seen the debate, which was truly great, fast-moving, well articulated, and irenic on both sides, as a fairly new former Protestant ex-pastor and apologist (3 years ago this coming Easter), I more or less called it a draw. (Gavin is pretty awesome). But this really helps. Too bad there wasn't time in the debate itself to develop this line of reasoning. Another powerful and easy to grasp apologetic is if Jesus intended for there to be the 3rd paradigm shift Protestants glommed unto He would have clued His disciples on the need to get their thoughts and experiences written down. But for the vast majority of them...not one jot or tittle.

[heyman.]

Trent now tallking in past tense about an argument he presented a debate he said he did, in a video he recorded before said debate. That was the most complex 1 minute introduction I have seen.