Is Heaven BORING and WEIRD? Response to Mindshift

Gavin Ortlund responds to Brandon from the channel @MindShift-Brandon about whether the Christian doctrine of heaven is boring and weird.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.

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00:00 Introduction
00:48 1) Overliteralism
03:18 2) Eternal Singing
06:47 3) A Stagnant Heaven
13:13 4) Loss of Identity
19:59 5) Divine Narcissism
21:16 Is Heaven Good?

[Christian-utsp]

“If they cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them.” Ouch

[HiHoSilvey]

Brandon reminds me of this quote from CS Lewis:

"We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”

[IAmTheSlink]

I shared this guy's concerns - back when I was in middle school. I'm a bit surprised to see an adult thinking this way.

[Telorchid]

Man who has never experienced infinity is convinced there is no good infinite experience to be had. I get the monotony idea, but he disregards the layering/expansion idea. If you can grow and learn, you will experience the wonder and beauty of the creation and the Creator at ever greater levels. It’s not just about adding hobbies.

[litigioussociety]

He makes the assumption that boredom and losing interest is possible in the first place. I lean toward the idea that whatever we do in heaven would be like some hour of your life that was extremely ecstatic and joyful here, but could continue forever with no diminishing returns. Many people have had that just socializing with new friends, and in heaven there would be billions of people to experience things with, and then start again if necessary.

[SamuelMoerbe]

“Eternity is never going to be a good thing”

“The further down the road you go with the concept of infinity, you realize there’s no good version of it”.

“Nothing can go on forever and be a good thing”

God is goodness itself. Like, let that sink in. When we are united to Christ, and we will experience the beatific vision, we will be united to Truth, Goodness, and Beauty itself. So yeah, Heaven is a good thing, because it’s being in the presence of “goodness” itself.

[ikemeitz]

Gavin, I'm an older brother of young siblings, and when I hear the idea that joy in heaven is both "full" and "growing, " I think about my relationship with my sister who's 11 years younger than me. I remember when she was born, that was absolutely a full joy! But the joy in knowing her has only grown as she is becoming an adult and my friend.

I'm sure parents can relate to this in an even closer way. This seems to me to be a good metaphor for that paradox of joy!

[johanvandersandt]

1 Corinthians 2:9 ESV
"But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”

Nuff said.

[meatballofall]

Another instance where fundamentalism and atheism apply literalism as the only possible hermanutic hammer!

[jimyoung]

I look forward to the day when creation and mankind is renewed and we get to experience what God meant from the beginning.

[tayh.]

It won't just end your pain, it will mend it.
Wow. I love that.

[jonathanmiller]

I can't fully express my gratitude for this video. I saw Brandon's video a few months ago while I was in a circumstance of deep study but also isolation and didn't have a great rebuttal for most of his points. I've struggled with the concept of eternity for most of my life, always had some severe anxiety over it that came and went. I was hit with panic attacks daily after finding Brandon's video and really had to pull myself free of that isolated circumstance because I couldn't handle that tension alone. The concept of infinity and eternity has always been a roadblock between me and thinking deeply about God and studying scripture because I'm always drawn back to it. It reared its ugly head again due to a recent authorial undertaking that has left me with more than a few sleepless nights. I was actually praying in the wee hours of this morning about this very issue, asking for some kind of peace. And here this video comes across my feed... That imagery of the infinite chasm, and the truth of infinite happiness from an infinite source, absolutely brilliant. You have been an answer to prayer. Thank for all that you do. And Praise God! Infinite fount of every blessing!

[AlliNelson]

Brandon watched the finale of The Good Place and decided to make it his theology 🙂‍↕️😅

[Nathanthepoe]

Pray for him! Hearing him talk about how heaven will be boring and that God is a tyrant is so sad. How does endlessly praising our Lord forever not sound amazing?

[jordanrouden]

The problem here with this dude is that the heavenliness of heaven isn't "all those things we could do". The heavenliness of heaven is Christ Himself.

[jtbasener]

The concern of looking foward to Heaven ruining our enjoyment of Earth is like being concerned that looking foward to marriage will ruin courtship. Memories of all the shared smiles and beauties between couples only become all the sweeter in the light of their ultimate unification; I don't think we should loose track of this beautiful reality when we consider the Biblical imagery of Heaven being ushered in by a marriage feast. Thank you, Dr. Ortlund! These concerns are certainly pressing things to address in our church society today.

[TheAbominater]

Hi Gavin, I'm agnostic but I think "heaven would be boring" has to be one of the worst arguments against theism! I really don't understand Mindshift's assertion that everybody would get bored. It's trivially easy to imagine an enjoyable state of existence that isn't constantly full of activity. For example, there are times I've sat quietly in a forest for long periods, not thinking about anything in particular but just being contemplative and relaxed, I wasn't bored at all. I don't think heaven is real, but in theory it sounds nicer than not existing!

[Christian-utsp]

Losing my thoughts in Heaven has always been an uncomfortable thought. That you take the opposite view here and provide evidence to that effect is calming

[distaff]

I grew up atheist - that was/is pretty much my take on it. I didn't get interested in Christianity for salvation, but because my life MUCH better after simply attending church one Sunday with a friend. Thank you for your podcasts, Gavin. They have been very helpful to my understanding.

[ikemeitz]

"I'm actually making the doctrine of Heaven a main focus in I'm so excited!