Suffering serves God's telos | Bernardo Kastrup

Bernardo Kastrup is a metaphysical idealist, arguing that universal phenomenal consciousness is all there ultimately is. He holds a Ph.D. in computer engineering and another in philosophy. Bernardo is also the executive director of the Essentia Foundation.

[biffin]

Imagine going to a play expecting Ibsen or Chekhov and instead all the actors walked on to announce that they were going to live for a hundred years and never know suffering or difficulty. After ten minutes you'd go the ticket office to get your money back. Suffering is intrinsic and necessary to the drama of Life. There's no up without down and no light without shade. As Krishnamurti pointed out; "Sorrow is a great jewel". Do not run away from it.

[guzmaynard]

I put this question to my spiritual guides about why we suffer, what I was given was the emotion I feel when I have an 'Aha' moment and that every time any of creation has an 'Aha' moment, is, what God lives for (I was also shown an image of metaphorical and real fireworks going off in the higher dimensions every time a piece of creation figured something out and expanded/evolved a bit more.
When you see our world from the higher dimensions suffering is essential and wanted by the soul and is part of the process of growth, it is because we are looking at suffering from ground level as humans that we have a limited response to it, that's the point. We have to be limited to spend such a long time in the lower vibrations otherwise we are not experiencing the jewels it has to gift us. Before anyone gets offended, I have suffered like a bitch in this life, so I am not belittling it at all.

[christopherjordan]

My suffering is one thing. I can understand that and even find value in it for the reasons described above. But it's the suffering of innocent beings, of beings that aren't even able to self reflect enough to be brought to those deeper questions, that make the concept of suffering for a higher purpose untenable.

[michaelseale]

A great insight by Bernardo as to the reason for suffering. Suffering is the only effective method in advancing the telos of Universal Mind. I wonder whether the Upanishads confirm this.

[Anna-jgbr]

I became far less selfish and a more open, loving person as a consequence of suffering. Up until that time I was interested mostly in advancing myself. But suffering forced me to face reality and ask myself some hard questions. I became interested in spiritual things and read about and practised meditation - and to my utter surprise and delight God became very real to me. So I know that suffering does have a purpose - it can make us more human and inspire us to respect our fellow humans, animals and the earth and hopefully change our world and lessen the suffering of others. When things are going great for us why should we become introspective and change?? There would be no motivation.

[Barbiecho]

Imagine for a second you are a homeless beggar. You’re freezing cold and hungry, crying. A person, any person, walking by sees you. Two things can happen. You will be helped (goodness/relief) or you will be ignored/chastised (suffering). The ability to offer goodness is only possible because man has the ability to OFFER. Offer what? Whatever is in the heart of man.

[fluxbe]

What if you're too young to question why you're suffering? I was in hospital with a little baby dying from cancer. She was not asking why as to avoid living a superficial life.

[benjayk]

What a frightening way of viewing the world. Glorifying suffering in that way is like adding fuel to the fire.🔥

The reality of suffering is that once delusion sets in and deepens, as mental capability degrade and deteriorate (whether through the natural process of brain degradation, or through mental difficulties) ultimately the very ability to "ask the deeper question" deteriorates and then disappears, leaving only the sheer brutal reality of suffering. Whether it serves a purpose or not at that point is of secondary importance. Think of animals suffering for our taste pleasure. It is absurd to think it is a "higher" purpose. It is our selfish purpose of wanting cheap meat, not more, not less. And there are many examples like that of course.

What we can hope for is achieving & realizing transcendence🌀. Achieving & realizing profound wholesomeness🌄. Achieving & realizing deliverance by a higher force & our higher selves🙏.

But the hope for a higher purpose for suffering is futile, as it is the nature of suffering to be driven by meaningless forces, futile & illusory stories and projections and lower (for example selfish, superficial, deluded, one-sided) purpose and aims.

[grahaminglis]

There is a fundamental question that needs to be considered before looking into suffering. Presumably, BK was born into a Roman Catholic family and received his early education from a Catholic Church/ school and therefore he was taught that God created man/woman in his/her image. On the other side of the question is the possibility that, as non-believers might attest, God did not create man, in fact man made the concept of God merely due to not being psychologically equipped to handle all the intricacies of life.

If you are a believer in the first proposition, naturally you will be drawn into the same dilemma facing BK when it comes to where the source of the notion of telos comes from and consequently suffering is shifted from man to his God which is very convenient because there is no way to prove that God, if he exists, accepts it as his suffering and in so doing exonerated all his human creations from any responsibility.

Now, the non-believers will not fall for the God story and will be faced with suffering as a man-made phenomenon that has to be addressed by the intelligence which man also possesses as a consequence of his responsibilities for the exigencies of living in the earthly sense without the need to resort to help from God.

Whichever way you look at the fundamental question will influence the way you decide how to deal with suffering. Take your pick!!

[trmp]

Doesn't really help make people feel any better though.. There should be kind of limit to suffering

[rblvegan]

It would be great to see a distinction made between “individual” suffering and global oppression by corporate criminals stealing resources comitting genocide against billions of indigenous and Africans. Gaza Strip Palestine list goes on. There’s a huge distinction despite suffering being the underlying tone.

[marzymarrz]

Well, you are not the first person to tackle the question of suffering. I would say the matter remains unsettled.

[gabrielteo]

If my suffering is God's suffering, God is a masochist not a sadist. I feel really bad for God suffering so much through my eyes.

[Great_WOK_Must_Be_Done]

I believe he's right. My greatest "spiritual advancement" came during and after my greatest periods of suffering in life. But it still sucks balls.

[detodounpoco]

Yes, pain and love are co-existences.

[nowenterpsie]

The question would be whether God is a masochist, not a sadist, because only God is ever doing the experiencing. At various points along the path of introspection I've worried about how or why the One Mind or God could be doing this to itself. Some kinds of suffering just feel like a profound cosmic mistake, but it's a great gift to find faith that it is for some deeper telos.

[ca]

He sounds tremendously anthropocentric, a complete religious thinker. Suffering is just a glorification of a survival-related stress response.

[SuperStargazer]

Is there a meaning in the slow agonising of an antelope being eaten alive by a lion?
Maybe God wishes to explore every conceivable possibility, even that of being eaten alive.

Is consciousness flowering into all possibilities?

I am an alter in the mind of God. That’s freaking awesome. Can I in anyway way control my experience or is everything being influenced by God.

I’ve always intuitively felt that all is not as it seems .

[natalita]

Se non è vero è ben trovato… and we, poor humans, need desperately to make sense of anything. But all we know is we dont know.

[lcteluzconocimientoytecnol]

We are the Dream, and Im is the Dreamer. God is not affected by the dream, he can do everything, "good or evil" and not to become a saint or a sinner, He Is All Existences