Where are the Goblins? Things Tolkien Abandoned | The Lord of the Rings | Middle Earth

Is this a goblin or an orc? What happened to the stone-throwing giants from The Hobbit? Why don't we see the young orcs that Gollum claims to have caught? And why did the elves lose their ability to vanish suddenly? In this video, we look at the elements Tolkien did not use and abandoned in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion as he continued to develop Middle Earth after The Hobbit.

#middleearth #silmarillion #thehobbit #tolkien #lordoftheringslore #sauron #balrog

Music: Scott Buckley @ScottBuckley

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00:00 Intro
00:29 Stone Giants
02:46 Strange Elf Behaviors
04:14 Goblin or Orc?
06:44 Orc Lineages
08:38 Why Orcs don't have Families
09:15 More Civilized Orcs

[CyBromancer]

I kinda wish Goblins and orcs were separate races. Orcs would stay corrupted elves, but Goblins could be corruptions or mockeries of Dwarves, being smaller, greedy, cunning and subterranean creatures that can: crawl or climb across rocky terrain; are able to see in complete darkness; are known to dwell within mountain halls, underground tunnels or mines; have a love for hording wealth or weapons from other races; and are skilled at buildings evil machines or wicked engines.

[SindarinElealar]

Big part to remember is that Goblins during the Hobbit are not yet under the sway of the Dark Lord. In the Battle of the Morannon, we clearly see that Sauron's forces are essentially mindcontrolled; they are not there of their own will, but they are simply easy to bend to his will. Back during the Hobbit he had not yet fully announced himself nor spread his power far beyond Mirkwood, where the growth of evil is noticed. Thus, the Goblins we see in the Hobbit are the only time we see Goblins/Orcs acting of their own volition; even in the Silmarillion, they are almost always subservient to Melkor. After his defeat, many escape and hide in the "deep corners of the world" and multiply. Thus it stands to reason that Goblin settlements like the Goblin-town of Misty Mountains is likely not at all unique a phenomenon, but the behaviour of the Goblins and Orcs under Sauron and Saruman is different, with their minds filled with hatred and war; and indeed, most of those Goblins likely hail from societies emptied by Sauron's call. The "problem of the Orcs" is something Tolkien has gone to some distance talking about how nothing can be truly irredeemable.

Also, the Giants and the Trolls simply got rolled into one, I would imagine.

[ThunderhawkVeronicaLazerwolf]

When Professor Tolkien realized that "goblin" was a word of French descent, he changed it to "orc", which is Anglo-Saxon. He was a Professor of Anglo Saxon Language. As insane as it is to consider, The Hobbit, LOTR, and the Silmarillion were a SIDE HUSTLE, not even his full time job! He was a beast

[patriarch]

We might interpret The Hobbit as being Bilbo recounting the story to hobbit children like Frodo. He spices up the narrative of an already dangerous journey over the mountains with rock-throwing giants, and debates with hungry trolls/bad-tempered goblin kings because children will relate to it better - and Bilbo has a more whimsical easygoing nature than Frodo.

The Lord of the Rings, related from Frodo's point of view, is a more factual telling of the story as a record, with less "embellishment".

Tolkien discussed the concept of female orcs in at least one letter, saying they may exist, but hadn't been seen by the characters hence not appeared anywhere in the stories. I imagine that giants (as creations of Melkor) don't fit with the overall theme that Evil cannot create new things, only corrupt originally Good things, and there is no "good" source for giants in the legendarium.

[DamonNomad]

Tolkien actually uses "orc" to describe goblins in "The Hobbit" on two occasions beyond the name of "Orcrist". The first is just after Bilbo escapes from Gollum and is making his way to the "Back Door" of Goblin Town. He notes how low the ceiling of the passage is and speculates that it seems a bit low for goblins, at least the big ones. Tolkien, as narrator, then explains to the reader that even the largest goblins "the orcs of the mountains" can run even when bent almost double. The second is when Gandalf leaves the company at the entrance to Mirkwood, and Bilbo asks him if there is any way around it instead of through it. Gandalf then explains that bypassing Mirkwood to the north would take them into the Grey Mountains, which were full of "goblins, hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", while bypassing it to the south would take them to the lands of the Necromancer.

[jameshumphrey]

Let's not overlook the Shagrat and Gorbag episode at the end of The Two Towers. They both had what we would call evil motivations, but they were evidently capable of friendship and respect, even across ethnic lines. Of course this proves pretty fragile, and the knives come out once suspicions and insults start flying. But it is a flash of humanity, or orcanity, or whatever.

[thylange]

In the chapter "flotsam and jetsam", Merry mentions Goblins and also humans with "goblin faces, sallow, leering, squint eyed." Aragorn calls them "half orcs". So this suggest that they were different to Uruk-hai.

[DoomMomDot]

Its worth noting that in the Two Towers, there is clearly a difference between the orcs of the misty mountains, the orcs of the Eye, and the orcs of the White Hand. so using goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs might be just a way to mention those differences. as for the Elves of Mirkwood, its worth noting that they were the descendants of the Elves who never saw the Two Trees, and were regarded by those who had seen the Two Trees as slightly wild.

[docblade]

I am a writer, not as amazing as tolkien of course, but my story goes for thousands of pages and i created a very long lore and universe, and before publish the first book, i had to rewrite it because it was written some 10 years ago, and i got amazed how the concepts and other things were changed and evolved as the story developed, so, if i had published the first book as originally was, it would be way inferior to what is now, and even have some errors! And even now, i already want to change some things in next editions! So, i understand why concepts and ideas can be changed or left behind, because i use to say that "the story didn't go in that direction"!

[In.Gy.]

I want to share my headcanon.

They are all orcs, but Goblins are orcs specially adapted to life underground. They are smaller, weaker, and incapable of facing sunlight. But they're more agile and excellent climbers.

Mordor orcs, or just regular orcs, are a well-balanced all-terrain type of orc. They can stand indirect sunlight and are larger than Goblins, strong, and well suited for overland travel. They lost the climbing ability, though.

Then you have Saruman's half-orcs. Which are fine in the sun, much smarter than orcs, but weaker. About on par if not stronger than humans.

Then there's Uruks, which is more of a rank among orcs to denote the strongest among them. The Uruk-hai Saruman made are super orcs, basically.

[somerandomperson]

I think Tolkien got the Orcs right in LOTR. They should not be overly civilized, they are the harbingers of doom, bred for violence by dark forces to be an existential threat for all good races.

[fantasywind]

Tolkien actually used the terms interchangeably! So Goblin or Orc is just different name for same type of creature! For goodness sake in Lotr even the Uruk-hai are sometimes called 'goblins' (but in the case of Uruks, all Uruks are Orcs, but not all Orcs are Uruks :)).

Stone Giants are the one anomaly...though the legends of giants are mentioned in Lotr as well....Tolkien could have easily explained their existance too if he wanted :)....I feel Stone Giants are the unique element of this world. It's feature so I accept they DO 'exist' in Middle-earth :)...along wiht many other unexplained, unknown, nameless dare I say ;), things and creatures out there that were not accounted for...for there are many mysteries in the world!

"Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters bred by the First Enemy are not wholly destroyed." Letter 131
...
"Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech." Letter 144
...
There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.

The Uruk Hai, The Two Towers
...
"Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen." Two Towers
...
"'Not a sound but the wind, ' he said. `There are no goblins near, or my ears are made of wood. It is to be hoped that the Orcs will be content with driving us from Moria. And maybe that was all their purpose, and they had nothing else to do with us-with the Ring. Though Orcs will often pursue foes for many leagues into the plain, if they have a fallen captain to avenge.'"

So is this silly argument over...I think so :).

In The Hobbit:

"If you have ever seen a dragon in a pinch, you will realize that this was only poetical exaggeration applied to any hobbit, even to Old Took’s great-grand-uncle Bullroarer, who was so huge (for a hobbit) that he could ride a horse. He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of the Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul’s head clean off with a wooden club."

In LotR he says of the same event

"2747

Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing."/"And later in the days of Arassuil, Orcs, multiplying again in the Misty Mountains, begin to ravage the lands, and the Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond fought with them. It was at this time that a large band came so far west as to enter the Shire, and were driven off by Bandobras Took."

The Hobbit:

"‘The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. “A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones, ” thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground.’"

So yeah...the word Orc is used in The Hobbit book. To be precise there is another case of use of 'orc': ""Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description."

The name of the swords introduced in Hobbit book: "Orcrist, the Goblin-cleaver in the ancient tongue of Gondolin"

The term goblin is used often in The Hobbit:

"Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill."

And Azog is even name the Goblin, in lotr appendices he is the orc chieftain.

From the Harper Collins 2006 paperback edition of The Hobbit, Author's Note:

"Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all to our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind."

Elves....vanish?! Ugghhh I remember that Gandalf is able to vanish and appear seemingly out of thin air when he needed to :) but it's basically his agile stealthiness hahaah.

[IsaacKuo]

Fascinating analysis! Since these stories are supposedly told through the filter of Bilbo (The Hobbit) and Frodo (The Lord of the Rings), we have a lot of flexibility in interpreting the differences. For a lot of it, we can assume Bilbo was ... uhh ... lying. He was basically telling this story to other Hobbits, who presumably would never leave hicksville so he could say whatever he wanted. In contrast, Frodo was compiling stories from himself and his fellow adventurer Hobbits, plausibly with the help of visitors. And this adventure plausibly left Frodo's spirit too drained to even think of trying to come up with fanciful lies or whatever.

With goblins, hobgoblics, and orcs, for example ... Bilbo's adventure did not really expose him that much to the outside world. He may have been confused himself about the differences - if any.

Conversely, the adventures of Frodo and the other hobbits were so much more threatened by the orcs that they may have simply not had any time to consider any classifications among them. Frodo could easily just decide to call them all orcs, because they didn't have any "easing in" to learn about which kind were which kind. There was practically no pause in their struggles to try and learn anything more than what they needed in order to try and survive the next day, the next hour, the next minute.

And yeah, they'd have a pretty negative view of those orcs, for obvious reasons.

Personally, I like to interpret the orcs as basically elves. They might have been twisted in appearance and ideology, and reduced in longevity, but on the inside they were still quintessentially elves. Part of this is my desire to see Morgoth as never really as powerful as he wished he was. And by extension, Saruman wasn't so powerful in making his super-orcs ... they were just half elves (elf-human hybrids).

Conveniently, anything in the text that contradicts my interpretation, I can chalk up to Bilbo/Frodo having distorted perspectives. Even with the Silmarillion and such, we're talking stories by the elves - who have their own obvious biases.

[glenedwards]

I feel like the Hobbit was also aimed (at least in my mind) at a younger audience than the LOTR and The Silmarillion. Another difference that always stuck in my mind was the Trolls in the Hobbit vs the LOTR. The 3 in the Hobbit spoke and were intelligent, whereas in the LOTR they are depicted more as beasts or creatures that are owned or controlled by orcs.

[uriustosh]

Interchangeable term based on the written sources but I've always head canon'd that goblins are just small orcs. Some tribes of orcs are smaller than others, and I put forth that the weak smallest ones are goblin (orcs). Like dogs, all dogs are dogs but not all breeds look the same or are the same size.

[hobikenobi]

I'd love to see Orc lineage. It'd be fascinating to know exactly where from what or whom they came, the different branches, etc. Whether there was any mixing or they were all geneticdlly engineered. They were woefully treated as a species but of course, one can likely understand Tolkien's thinking. If he made them too familiar, they became too like us, they become 'human-like' in our eyes, and we start to then sympathise with them. And there was no room for sympathy at the time. But looking back now I like to think there's room. 😊

[fantasywind]

The Wood Elves question...it basically is part of the elven of the elves do have certain abilities and powers....and hell in The Silmarillion elf Eól also had enchantments that would be no doubt in kind similar to those of Wood Elves of Mirkwood:

"And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feiniel as she strayed among the tall trees near the borders of Nan Elmoth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever nearer to his dwelling in the depths of the wood."

This is very similar case with the enchantments that would be protecting the wood elf feast spots in The Hobbit :).

[wavetactics]

The association of smaller orcs with the word goblin predates the Jackson films. The orcs of the Hobbit were from the Misty Mountains, when those orcs were depicted in LotR they were described as smaller and weaker than the Mordor orcs and Isengard Uruk Hai. Folks put 2 and 2 together and the association was enough to carry on into works that drew inspiration from LotR, like DnD, long before the films. Young and female orcs aren't seen for the simple fact that none of the Fellowship go anywhere they would really expect to see them. The only times they might have would have been in Moria or Mordor, and in neither case did they go into an Orc's den. In Moria the orcs came after the Fellowship, and in Mordor Sam and Frodo only entered the watch tower and avoided the orcs as much as they could afterwards.

[The-Mstr-Pook]

I always got the impression when reading Tolkien, that Orcs are corrupted Elves in lineage. Goblins are corrupted Dwarves, and Uruk-ai are corrupt men, And able to walk in the sun. Men being creatures of the daylight, not of starlight of Elves or caverns deep for Dwarves. Hob-Goblin was a
Orc / Goblin interbreed. Like a donkey and a horse to make a Mules.

[icesnowflake]

It's possible that the orcs underwent a societal transformation of some kind between The Hobbit, and Lord Of The Rings. They came under the dominion of Sauron, and their former social structures were replaced with a more regimented and militaristic style of rule.