Wim Winters - Some Thoughts

The Music Professor gives us his thoughts on Wim Winters and his controversial views on tempo.

#themusicprofessor #tempo #beethoven

[za]

Didn't have themusicprofessor drops diss track on my bingo card for 2025

[paulwellings-longmore]

I wouldn’t characterise Wim Winters as wrong and utterly eccentric. He does give examples of music played at ludicrously fast tempos, which apparently conform to metronome markings. And then offers comparisons of virtuosos fastest performances, all of which fall far short of the speeds demanded by metronome marks.

Maybe the fault is rather in Wim
Winters treating metronome markings as inviolable and sacrosanct rather than guides to performance.

[SunkemNotHacks]

I really need to find that google docs document that has many accounts of how long performances of classic works lasted. It disproves the idea that there is a drastic difference in the time it takes to perfom pieces now compared to back then. Can't wait to see what you will say about the topic!

[Bachforever]

Seldom heard such a BS before. But, as you want to "execute" music and others, like Wim winters, want to "perform", that makes the difference. Listen ho his marvelous performance of Bachs WTC I or CPE Bachs Wuerttemberg Sonatas. There are no MM marks for these pieces, but in that case you should listen to his rationalization using Cerny´s metronome markings of Bachs WTC.

[cassioblucas]

No musicologist here... communication scholar, in fact. And I can't help but think that most of the discussion is missing the point. Productive as it may be, the controversy is, as always, exaggerated on social media (YouTube included). And Winters realized that being against a popular take gives him lots of views. That's pretty much all there is to it, since his arguments seem to have been going for decades via other composers/musicologists (whom he doesn't appear to mention sufficiently often, which should be a trait of good scientific discussion).

[dukeofcurls]

can't wait for his response to this lol

[DrJulianNewmansChannel]

Ouch! I agree that his theory is utterly eccentric, but (unless you have some evidence that I haven't seen) I'm not convinced that it's because he resents people with the virtuosic skill that he lacks. I have, for a long time, had my own feeling that the modern world of classical music has somewhat lost touch with the true aesthetic of Common Practice Period music, and as I listen to Wim Winters, it seems to me as if he has felt a similar tension to me but has just found a resolution to that tension in the wrong place. When you've been surrounded by highly respected and prestigious musical institutions that place little focus on how to truly bring out to the audience the beauty that is objectively and inherently present in a gifted composer's act of self-expression, then you can imagine how hearing the work at half tempo - with so many more of the details of the beauty given more time to resonate in the listener's mind - will feel very compelling. And so, reducing the whole thing to scorn for those with virtuosic skill that he lacks seems maybe a bit unfair. His protégé Alberto Sanna seems to possess virtuosic skill, and yet _his_ story sounds a lot like the scenario I've described.

[AlbertoSegovia.]

By now telling one’s thoughts is enough (maybe never wasn’t); you should contact him and see for a debate with him. Or not. Just provide us with answers to the problem. You of all people shouldn’t care that much to express an opinion on such a questionable individual. About Maelzel’s Metronome numbers, yes, we’re all ears,

[gspianoguitar]

I also put forward to him years ago that his theories make the established historical tempo indicators we all trust a complete nonsense. Presto = as fast as possible / Allegro = fast / Adagio = very slow / Andante Allegretto Moderato etc etc. My main point was actually that Liszt, for one, was never known in his life to even once come out and say these tempo markings are wrong - "We're all playing this too fast" "this is how it should be" "this is what Beethoven really wants". There's no record of that I know of? I recall Winters reaction to this was a 3 video construction of how 'allegro' really means Moderato/Andante. How Adagio was actually quite accurate but a little slower than what we have been led to believe" ...absolute drivel and of course he was shot down in flames but this illustrated how far he was prepared to go to factualise his assertions ..madness. I have not looked at him for years but assume he's still doing the same

[VRnamek]

I don't know if it's historically accurate - may sound insane at first, but he does make some strong cases, plus I've also read that document with all the historical accounts on performance timing.

But personally I always hated Mozart in single beat, way before finding out Wim. It sounds cartoony, indeed classical cartoons seemed to find classical music perfectly cartoony - maybe for same reason. When played at whole beat, it sounds thoughtful and deep mature Mozart, instead of like a brat running around and playing tricks on Salieri...

Is that not historically accurate? Then I can just dismiss history in most the same manner as most players dismiss impossible metronome markings in single beat...

[gspianoguitar]

Completely agree with you. Years ago when he first appeared with his 'theories' I gave it a respectful and intelligent response. Once looked at properly I came to the very same conclusions which he got extremely offended by. I concluded that Chopin did not write his 'revolutionary' study to be performed very 'unrevolutionary' at andante! Just that one performance found him out for me. He lacks high level technique and so needs to justify his 'musicality' at half speeds - I think his Hammerklavier Sonata took about 1hr 40 mins !! completely mad imo (but I'd say he makes a good living off it!)

[MasmorraAoE]

Moschelles: "Ainsi, lorsque le compositeur marque croche = 60 du metronome, cela indique un mouvement ou il n'y a que *60 croches dans un minute, ou une croche par seconde*"
- in his "Method of the Methods"

Czerny: "For Example M.M.♩= 112, we must play every quarter note exactly with the audible beats of the metronome"
- in his Op. 500

In a world where we have these kinds of statements - and there are many more -- double theory shouldn't be more than a party prank.

[ryanlocku]

His video on the Don Giovanni overture tells you everything you need to know about him.

[daloki]

Wim Winters has just released a video countering your criticism. I hope you will address his critique of your ideas.

[smileydts]

If he played slow and just said “this is how I feel about the music, ” I would actually respect that (even if I don’t really care to listen to it). No need for the baloney.

[ValentinKovshikMusic]

I was one of those asking about his theory in the comments to your video about Träumerei. After some investigation and discussion there in the comments, it turned out to be a probable first publisher's mistake in the markings rather than some conspiracy thing :)
Wim Winters is very enthusiastic about his theory, but as many people point out, it is far from scientifically proven, and many of his examples are painfully slow. Those that are not too slow can be explained, I believe, as a result of multiple factors:
1. differences in interpreting and converting numeric and verbal tempo markings;
2. different models of metronomes used historically [there is physical evidence of old metronomes with weird bpm values, like 120 bpm marked as adagio (!), that's a fact unfortunately];
3. possible mistakes and typos in scores;
4. composers putting those marking without using an actual metronome to check the exact value.
Of course it does NOT mean that ALL music must be slowed down.
In general, I strongly believe in the performer's freedom and think that finding the "composer's intent" purists are so obsessed about, is not THAT important. Metronome markings, whatever they are, should not be a dogma at all!

[Clem]

Regardless of what you think about his hypothesis, he's very definitely an excellent and virtuosic musician. Your insult would suggest to me that it's you who is covering over something within yourself. I feel fortunate that no professor or mentor I've had in 63 years of playing music that I never had a teacher with such a closed mind.

[DismasZelenka]

YT algorithms just led me to Wim Winters' newest 50 minute rant about this less-then-a-minute short. After scrolling through the transcript, I don't think he says anything he hasn't said before, many times.

[JérémyPresle]

It is funny that You are doing the same thing you accuse Wim of doing. You are having a fundamentalistic view on the metronome marking issue. You take your (unargumented) belief as the universal truth. And then goes in the comment section talking about cult and conspiracy theories.

BTW a quick research proves you 'utterly' wrong regarding Wim and Alberto's lack of 'virtuoso' skills.
That's sad that classical music world has arrived to a point where insults are the only thing left to cover the many discrepencies in the mainstream narrative about tempo.

[wyattk.]

accounts of the Beethoven benefit concert alone disprove this conspiracy