This House Believes That Scotland Should Be An Independent Country | The Cambridge Union

In the Chair: Michael Dunn Goekjian, President (Easter 2014)

As the Scottish Independence referendum approaches, we pass our own verdict. Tonight we debate and explore the arguments surrounding Scottish Independence.

PROPOSITION:

MICHAEL GRAY
is a staff researcher with Business For Scotland, a pro-independence business and economic policy think tank.

PETE WISHART MP
is the SNP member for Perth and North Perthshire. He is the party's Westminster spokesperson for the Constitution, Home Affairs, Culture, Media and Sport, and International Development.

CALLUM WORSLEY
is a student at Cambridge University.

----

OPPOSITION:

LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS
is a former Deputy First Minister of Scotland and twice Acting First Minister. He is the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, Lord Advocate General for Scotland and former MP for Orkney and Shetland.

ANNE MCGUIRE MP
is the member for Stirling and Shadow Minister for Disabled People. She is a former Scotland Minister and Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Leader of the Opposition.

BEN ADAMS
is a world debating champion and student at Cambridge University.

The House Divided:
Ayes: 27
Noes: 110
Abstentions: 36

[ZooScott]

True leaders of Men, vote YES . our children are the future, let's give it all up to them . what will they say if we don't .

[hashburystumble]

Point of information for Gerome Greenfield - there is no means by which Scotland or it's citizens can be expelled from the EU, in particular we meet all the criteria for membership.
Point of information for Thomas Saunders - Scotland's Future (the White Paper) is 670 pages long, the most advanced proposition ever made for a country gaining it's independence. How can you mis-construe that as Pete Wishart preferring the Scottish electorate to go to the polls "ignorant" instead of "fearful" as the self-titled Better Together's "Project Fear"  

[hashburystumble]

University Challenged - Ben Adams studying Meta-Physics speaking on Economics  & Politics. Not even a starter for 10 Ben.
As a member of CND your view on Trident is not only uninformed but also in opposition to CND who have registered with the Electoral Commission in support of the Yes campaign.

[greigsanderson]

A debate about Scottish independence in Cambridge, England? ha ha. Do I care what these English tories say about Scottish independence? I don't think any scots will say, " I wonder what the views of Cambridge are, we better find out before we vote " lol

[johnnicolson]

This is a turning point for Britain it won't be called the United Kingdom anymore as Scotland will soon be Independent, N Ireland will soon join Ireland so Wales and England will have to be called rUK (rest of the UK) or little Britain.

[lewisduncan]

Firstly, let me be absolutely clear - the ongoing political and economic situation in the UK is not 'normal' and the status quo, or whatever variation of the status quo might or might not be on offer in the event of a No vote, is not the “best of both worlds”.
We have the most expensive public transport (run by private businesses for profit), energy (ditto), the longest working hours, the most inefficient tax system, the lowest pensions, the most unequal and skewed economy, the most centralised concentration of political power in Europe and both a government and an opposition in Westminster committed to this status quo, including the dismantling of the NHS to replace it with a US style system that puts profit before people. We live in the most unequal society in Europe. I repeat - this is NOT normal.
The imbalance of the UK versus other European countries, and those further afield, is proven by publicly available data whether you want to look at in-work and child poverty, privatisation of public services, local democracy, land ownership, pensions or any number of other measures. These are facts (citations on request or you could just google it and find out for yourself instead of moaning there isn’t enough info to make up your mind) but they are also things that can be changed if we choose to change them. It doesn't have to be this way. It is only difficult to change them because it goes against the neoliberal consensus which has become the politics of all 3 Westminster parties over the last 30 years (when they're not knee-jerking even further to the right to satisfy UKIP swing voters in the shires).
Politics is a question of priorities. I think the parties at Westminster have their priorities wrong. I think they’ve become blinded to what’s right for the people they serve by what’s good for big business, that they think their economic orthodoxy trickles wealth down, instead of up. Is it more important that we invest in nuclear weapons or education? Aircraft carriers or healthcare? Should private companies be able to make obscene profits from heating our homes or mass transit systems, or our ill health? Do you want to continue to live in a Me First society or share more of the success of our nation with the people who make that success possible by putting All of Us first (with thanks to The Common Weal)?
Some of my friendsare voting no because they think Westminster will change its tune with a Labour government in power (worth remembering who deregulated the banking industry, stole the pension pot, began the privatisation of the NHS), or because they think the status quo is as good as it gets (as history shows, it never is), or because they think some sort of anarchist uprising will overthrow the powers that be at some indeterminate point in the future (it won’t and it’s not desirable anyway), or because they think we are stronger (whatever that means) with the “most successful political Union in history” (again, by what criteria? Successful for whom?).
Some of them are voting no because they “hate” Alex Salmond although he and the SNP administration at Holyrood were democratically elected to a majority in a system designed to stop that happening yet still, after a length of time that would see most governments ousted, have the highest approval ratings of any leader or party in the UK – three times as many residents trust Holyrood than Westminster to look after Scottish interests.
I'm voting Yes because I don't believe this is as good as it gets, because I see a Labour party that’s turned its back on its own principles and is trying to out-Tory the Tories (a race to the bottom they can never win), because I don't believe in an anarchist uprising, nor that the electorate in much of the rest of the UK believes it's either necessary or desirable and because a Yes vote is not a vote for the SNP or Alex Salmond, it’s a vote for change to the rotten-to-the-core status quo.
I'm voting Yes because we have a clear and present opportunity to change things, I hope for the better, by the simple act of putting a cross in a box. I'm under no illusions that a Yes vote will suddenly result in a land of milk and honey. It'll be hard. But when was anything worthwhile ever easy? I believe it is worth it for the prize of a better, fairer place to bring up my future children, and for them to bring up theirs, for the chance to take back control of the levers that can make this country, our society a better place to live.
Decisions made here have made Scotland a better place and protected our citizens from some of the worst of the current government’s attack on the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. It’s also worth pointing out that we can vote for whoever we like in the first elections in an independent Scotland, meaning we’re far more likely to have a government that truly represents the views of all of us who live here and, yes that includes Tory & UKIP voters. It’s not going to be some socialist utopia but it is going to reflect the views of all of us in a way that the first past the post Westminster system doesn’t. Recent propaganda from the No side has boasted that Scotland gets the government it votes for two thirds of the time. Wouldn’t it be better if we got the government we voted for all the time rather than hope that the rest of the UK votes the same way?


The BBC asked a women in Aberdeen once, "Why Yes"? She replied, when I look out to sea all I see is oil rigs, when I look inland all I see is foodbanks.
You may be asking why is all the relevant to you?

I have researched the Westminster system for several years now. If you know and understand how it really works- and who really controls Britain, you would not hesitate to vote YES in September. A NO vote will effectively mean the beginning of the end of Scotland. The British Government is hoping to use the September referendum to legitimize their control of Scotland and it's very valuable resources in the eyes of the World. The David Hume Institute puts the true oil reserves between 2.2 and 4 trillion Pounds. They used OECD economists calculations. No wonder the Westminster regime is opposed to independence! The SNP is not helping the YES campaign by sending out mixed messages- and supporting ambiguous policies -like retaining the Pound when respected economists are advocating a new currency. Dennis Canavan's republican rantings are also not going to win over undecided voters- the majority of Scots still support the monarchy despite the republican leanings of most nationalist politicians. With the referendum results likely to be very close- nationalist politicians need to carefully contemplate every word that comes out of their mouths within the weeks and days before the referendum.

The Tories have only 36% of the vote! only 1 MP in Scotland, they fund wars all over the world, allow/promote illegal financial behaviour from the banking sector then force the tax payer to foot the bill, they privatise essential services and they take from those who have the least - do you seriously believe we live in a democracy???
To state the 'UK Government cannot be held responsible for bad fiscal policies', when it is the very Government who's fiscal policies have seen the debt triple since it came to power in 2011, is farcical! Economic growth prior to the Tories taking office was 1% in 2010, yet this Government seems to celebrate growth of 0.8% as if it's some sort of achievement when in actual fact it's a disaster. Furthermore, when economic growth is achieved by privatising a health service (against the will of 83% of the population), cutting benefits from our most vulnerable, needy, sick and elderly then it is not true economic growth!
Growth is usually a positive because it's supposed to demonstrate that the quality of life is improving - with over 1 million people reliant on food banks, a working poor, zero hour contracts, higher fuel and food prices, higher taxes for less services, life is awful in this country for way too many. Normally economic growth is achieved by investment in the public sector and job creation - thus higher taxes, much like the way Swinney outlined it for Scotland - at the benefit of the people!
Privatisation is not inevitable and to suggest we cannot afford such things as the NHS or Social Security is ridiculous and demonstrates a lack of knowledge of Scottish and UK finances. The UK Government may paint this picture but the reality is that they give around £120bn away every year in the tax breaks they allow corporations and the rich! That's more than the entire cost of the NHS! Isn't it funny how we could afford to build and sustain our NHS after WW2, with debt around 200% of GDP, yet apparently we can't now!!?? Isn't it possible that the UK Government are in fact pulling the wool over your eyes? Have a look at the the official figures, it exposes their BS! The policies of the Tories and Labour for that matter, will ensure that within 10 years the NHS will be lost forever, if, Scotland remains part of the UK. Losing our NHS will put all remaining generations at risk - just look at the USA as proof of the devastating effects of private health care.
Only by voting for independence can we have democracy - governments we elect, an end to illegal wars, free ourselves from nuclear arms, an NHS, a fairer tax system and a more equal society.
Scotland can afford independence this is a FACT. We are also much RICHER than the UK (14th richest nation in the world - UK is only 18). We raise more tax per head, we have lower rates of public spending (even with free prescriptions and bus passes) and we're much richer per head!!
It defies all logical thought to allow SOMEONE else to make our decisions for us!
I'm voting for my future children's way of life. A way I can safety say it's not going to cost me hundreds just to use a public sector if a no vote would come through.

Billions are spend on weapons, they are still making more aircraft carriers and warships etc.. It'll cost £130 Billion to replace the old ones. And we have the sick and poor out in the streets, more food banks etc..
You must remember it is not only for your generation but for the like sod your children to come and there children etc  - to become free in the shape of an affluent Scandinavian country or be ruled forever more by successive Tory governments! (and in 2015 at the General Election it is guaranteed that a TORY/UKIP coalition will win - both have made it clear the are determined to abolish the NHS and free health care..

Only by voting for independence can we have democracy - governments we elect, an end to illegal wars, free ourselves from nuclear arms, an NHS, a fairer tax system and a more equal society.

Scotland can afford independence this is a FACT. We are also much RICHER than the UK (14th richest nation in the world - UK is only 18). We raise more tax per head, we have lower rates of public spending (even with free prescriptions and bus passes) and we're much richer per head!!

Remember that the price of things aren't getting any better these days due to inflation. I really see independence as an opportunity. They will eventually start cutting away the disabled and elderly from travelling for free also. Imagine having to pay for hospital/dental fees and your prescription!

It defies all logical thought to allow SOMEONE else to make our decisions for us!

Best of all we vote for a government we want and to have the right to say what we want!



Vote yes.

[busterbrown]

If I had participated in such a weak debate at university - I would have been completely ashamed. What a lot of shit this debate was! I am embarrassed watching it. Must do better next time. I just hope, for unionists, it's not too late! 

[os]

Ben Adams completely misrepresents the Yes side's argument, really bad debating etiquette and its a pity they can't get a proper reply.

[grahamfleming]

England has invaded 179 countries how many has free Ireland invaded ahundred years ago it was a British backwater now its 4th highest G.D.P. Scotland wouldn't independtly have attacked these countries the death toll is over 150million. Just a thought.