Craig Keener, Peter May & Joshua Brown: Miracle Healing - does it happen today?

Can a skeptical doctor be persuaded that there is medical evidence for modern day healing?
Craig Keener, author of 'Miracles Today', returns to the show to debate one of his fiercest critics Peter May, a retired medical doctor who says he has never encountered a compelling case of miracle healing after decades of investigation. Craig is joined by Joshua Brown of the Global Medical Research Institute who defends two cases of healing - of a digestive tract and restored vision - which he says pass Peter May's criterion for miracles.

Papers referenced by Peter May:
• “Miracles Today?” A Medical Critique of Craig Keener’s miracle claims. The Skeptic, Reason with Compassion. (on line) 8th July 2022
• “Miracles in Medicine” Science and Christian Belief 2017, Volume 29, No 2, pp 121-134
• “Response to my Critics” Science & Christian Belief 2019, Vol 31, No 1, pp 70 - 77
• “Beatification of Cardinal Henry Newman” Medico-Legal Journal, 2017, Vol 85 (4)
• Faith and Thought (the Victoria Institute), October 2009, pp11-25,
• Claimed Contemporary Miracles, Medico-Legal Journal, Volume 71, Part 4, 2003
• The Faith Healing Claims of Morris Cerullo, Free Enquiry, 1993/94

[TheNamAfrican]

After hearing Peter's plain refusal to concede, despite the compelling evidence, Craig should not feel bad of not engaging him by sending him 3 of the best cases, since it is clear that Peter does not have a genuine interest or even remote openess to examine the evidence objectively if it means he will have to make a concession. Initially I thought Craig was wrong not to accede to Peter's request of years ago, but by the end of the video it became clear that it would be a waste of time.

[TestifyApologetics]

May is frustratingly constantly shifting the goalposts and his behavior at the end towards Keener was disgraceful. I won't tell you what to do Justin with your show, but if it were me, I'd never have him on again.

[Krillian]

1:04-1:06 is probably the most important part of this discussion. Peter has no compelling argument against the evidential claims of the boy's stomach and digestive healing, so he relies on the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. First, does he recognize that he's insulting Joshua Brown, who is a scientist, to his face?

And secondly, I feel like Joshua Brown's rebuttal to Peter's "appeal to authority" was pretty profound, even if Peter ignored and dismissed it completely. Brown suggests that the scientific establishment maintains an Enlightenment/Hume dogma that faithfully adheres solely and exclusively to naturalistic explanation....It is a belief system about science that ironically cannot be empirically proven, any more than Euclid's 5 postulates for Geometry. No, the Enlightenment view is itself dogma b/c it relies on its own subjective pretenses of faith and worldview. As a result, Joshua argues that the scientific establishment refused to review his paper a priori- not b/c of any concerns about scientific procedure or the validity of the evidence, but b/c the paper's conclusions point to a possibility that extends beyond physical/naturalistic explanation. And that can not be tolerated by the clergy of the white jackets.

[Christopher_Lind]

I think it’s important to distinguish when you’re dealing with a skeptic versus a cynic. A skeptic has a clear and consistent threshold of evidence and once that criteria has been met, they submit to the evidence. A cynic approaches a subject firmly believing the alternative outcome to be impossible. As a result, no amount of evidence will ever change their mind.

It’s seems based on Peter’s continual moving of his own goal posts and dismissing evidence by either creating hypothetical arguments (not demonstrating any evidence that’s a better explanation) or dismissing it to someone who came to the same conclusion as him but isn’t there to present their argument.

My biggest question back to Peter would be, “Why is it you are so determined to refuse the possibility of a miraculous healing?” I’m genuinely curious what his logic is. Not sure if it’s theological, if he’s seen someone harmed by false claims, etc…

[ExploringReality]

I’ve never seen Keener get frustrated before but I don’t blame him. His epistemology and the data was never really questioned. He showed up to wrestle through the evidence not have a rhetoric battle

[davidbeesley]

It seems that May's biblical and medical criteria for healing miracles are faulty. His presuppositions rule out modern miracles.

[isaacbonilla]

After watching all the debate and see the weakness in Peter position, I want to thank this channel for this debate. It has increase my faith seeing that in order to negate miracle you literally have to imagine preposterous ideas to explain them away.

Thanks Justin!

[gjjk]

Peter might as well have “Psychosomatic” tattooed on his hands and cover his eyes.

[jaggedstarrPI]

Do psycho somatic illnesses present in infants?! I find that suggestion ridiculous. The man has simply decided, a priori, that miracles no longer happen. His hostility toward his opponents is the most telling aspect of his comments.
P.s. If his claim is that only the healing was psychosomatic, he should be clear; and by the way: what's the difference between a healing based upon faith and a "psychosomatic" cure? Nothing except the world view of the observer.

[louisduplessis]

Dr. Keener is a very soft-spoken man and this should taken into account...kick the audio up a few notches, Just a techinical matter.

[noway]

I was a photojournalist missionary in Asia (based in Thailand) for many years for a mission organization, we were always looking for story ideas from different missionaries and believers in the region we covered. Sadly many of our leads brought amazing stories to our attention but not all were of the nature that would fit into our publications. One story I regret noting being able to follow up on happened in Cambodia. A missionary (Western) knew some Cambodian believers/Kingdom-workers in a remote area who told of a man having been raised from the dead. This missionary colleague had the chance to interview the family while on a visit to the area sometime after it had happened. He was skeptical as there often superstitious explanations conclusions jumped to among the less educated and rural areas in this part of the world. He was introduced to the family by the Cambodian minister and they told him the story of how the husband had become increasingly distraught over a long period of time, and one day when his wife had left their home/village one day, the husband had hung himself from a tree behind their home. Hours later she returned to find him hanging from the tree dead. She contacted the local minister who came over and felt led to pray for God to bring him back to life. When the prayed this, the man began to breath and returned to life. The missionary having the same skeptical thoughts that most of us would began asking the wife some questions about her experience through it all. Thinking that it was possible that the husband had not hung long enough to have really died and may have only lost consciousness and appeared to be dead, the missionary asked the wife, "What makes you think that he had been hanging there long enough to truly be dead and not just appear to be so?" She said she knew he had to have been there for along time because, "the dung on his pants had already dried by the time I found hi and took him down from the rope."
Do I offer this as "proof" of a miracle? No, and someone like Peter May wouldn't believe this story was valid at all. But I knew the missionary who wouldn't manufacture a story like this. Could the man and woman have crafted this story? Sure, but I'm not sure the benefit for them. I do know this incident had a positive impact on many regarding their devotion to Jesus and more than just the couple and minister were witness to the event. This for me was one of those stories that provided the anecdotal bit that gave it credibility to accept it has highly likely to have happened though I would not argue it as verifiable and certainly "true". Dying by asphyxia or other kinds of traumatic death creates the high likelihood of defecation/urination which isn't something the wife would have likely included unless she had experienced it and seen it in actuality.
Certainly refutable for someone who refuses to accept such things could happen, but also not a certain example of verifiable proof someone could use to back up claims of someone being raised from the dead. Take from it what you will.

[noway]

Peter appears somewhere between agitated and angry during this exchange, especially in regards to Craig. It seems personal to Peter, (edited)... who is acting like a rude jerk interrupting and being generally disagreeable throughout...

[justin]

Peter is an interesting and quite disturbing blend of a real Christian under the burden of inability to see he still holds to some atheistic, scientism presuppositions carried over from his atheistic days.

[BluVie]

Good conversation. A little annoyed that Peter’s skepticism does seem intractable since he can either blame the doctor or the patient or the researcher or the journal that publishes the report as being “crazy” any time he wants to with no proof.

[mathewabraham]

If Peter can’t see that what happen to him were nothing short of a miracle, how is he ever going to believe any documentation from doctor? 1:55:32 Peter needs help. Sounds like he is very upset that Craig did not respond to Peter’s request for 3 cases.

[garysweeten]

When we read cell biologists who have researched the power of Belief and Faith on physical healing, many indicate that “All physical diseases are a combination of soma and psyche”. Bruce Lipton Ph. D. In his book, The Biology of Belief says that all treatment and healing is ‘psychosomatic’. As a retired therapist several of my teachers argued against my claims of prayerful healing as /psychosomatic’. Of course they were correct for that is exactly what we were trying to learn how to do in psych classes. Once we understand contemporary physiology we see that Descartes and Plato were wrong about the body, mind, and spirit split. It is a unity and faithful prayer can unleash a therapeutic/healing energy. God uses our prayers and faith to bring changes. Especially since we have the Holy Spirit with us and in us.

[IsaiahSaldivar]

Clicked to check it out for 2 mins stayed for 2 hours. Very interesting. I was shocked when peter admits God heals him of leukemia but doesn't believe in modern day miracles 😬

[timproudfoot]

Dr. May your proposal that it could be psychosomatic is a lazy argument. You should address your own bias of pride, seems your vision needs a check.

[davethebrahman]

Good to see a return to form by ‘Unbelievable?’. This is the sort of discussion the show does so well.

[TheNamAfrican]

Peter's objection to the case of the blind lady eventually deteriorated into plain rhetorical "I refuse to believe it". Really now, there is simply no difference between the account of the blind lady and the blind people's healings in the Bible, and he simply fails to give any reasonable or detailed reason for his distinction between the two instances. Josh actually, point for point, meets up the facts of the case with the Lambertini criteria, and still Peter is "just not convinced" (in his own words). As another commentator stated - you have to distinguish between a skeptic and a cynic - and Peter falls squarely in the category of cynic.