Do you notice hub engagement?

#keeppedaling #workhardriderharder #myi9

Industry Nine Torch vs Hydra hubs - how are they different on the trail?

What’s up guys! Some of you might be obsessed with fast engaging hubs. Me? Well, I’m going to admit something here- I’ve never been much of an “engagement snob”. And today, I want to test the new Industry Nine Hydra hub against the older I9 Torch hub.

What is hub engagement? Bikes have evolved from the historical fixed gear designs, which meant that the pedals were always moving in conjunction with a wheel. Sometimes the pedals were on the front wheel, like on a Pennyfarthing, and sometimes they were connected with a chain to the rear wheel, like the fixie bikes that the kids ride in the big cities.

For all of us single track connoisseurs, well thank goodness, we have evolved to where bikes are now, with a ratcheting system that allows the rear wheel to spin independently of the pedals. This system is possible with what we call a free hub, or free wheel, that’s built into the bike’s rear wheel. Most ratcheting systems have a small bit of free play between starting a pedaling motion and actually driving the bike forwards. This free play is the result of the drive pawls of the ratchet needing to span the distance between the teeth they engage to then drive the bike forwards.

I started thinking about how I could do a test to see how noticeable engagement actually is. With the new Hydra hub design, everyone has been talking about engagement, so this should be a cool way to bring the tech into a real-life application and see how it feels in the dirt!

My idea for today is to try some weird rock line stuff that doesn’t have a ton of space to really mash on the pedals. Theoretically, this will be the spot where higher engagement will be most noticeable.

On the Hydra, Industry Nine used some very clever engineering to turn a potential problem into a huge benefit. Jacob told me about this during our podcast at Sea Otter, and I think it’s a genius idea. On just about any hub that uses a traditional pawl/engagement tooth design, If you ever go to pedal and you hear a loud “clang” slightly after you started pedaling, well, that’s because a pawl or two that didn’t engage fully when you first started pedaling and finally slammed into place once. Bikes flex quite a bit, and even with a modern through axle, hub axles can flex. When they flex enough, only one (or two) pawls can engage. If there is too much flex, then a lone pawl can rip out of the freehub body, and ruin the drive ring and the hub as a whole. This has sent me OTB and I’ve even DNFd races after such failures!

The Hydra design is super clever. It is intentionally designed so that only one pawl engages initially. Then the following (and not-yet-engaged) pawls are designed to be able to flex enough to seat themselves fully. This is why 690 engagement teeth are more reliable than say, 24 really big teeth. The Hydra pawl that is snapping late into its engagement tooth will have a lot less force on it when it travels that small distance and finds its home. This also means that the slightly softer engagement will be more forgiving on low traction environments. That’s a super cool strategy!

Big thanks to Industry Nine for their support this

Big thanks to these guys for making this all possible! Any purchases from these links will directly help support this series as well:

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[industrynine]

Great video, Jeff! While the higher engagement from Torch to Hydra was definitely a goal of ours, we really wanted to make a more durable hub. Awesome job showing how Hydra factors in the inherent flex of the hub driver for less bearing wear over time.

[habuchanan]

Great video! I came across higher engagement hubs without knowing it, then when I went back to regular hubs, I was very aware of the difference. I started MTBing in the early 90s and I still have the bike I purchased in 1999, a GT XCR 4000. I wanted solid components that I thought would last and chose Chris King hubs...so I've been riding that bike for over 20 yrs, and no issues. I recently retired from the Navy and moved back to western VA where there are lots of rock gardens. I started riding a loop on the GT on a regular basis, which was sometimes more challenging than fun. I finally decided to bite the bullet and purchase a new bike, which ended up being a 2020 Pivot 429 with DT Swiss hubs. I rode the same trail and although I was a big fan of the new bike something was off, in comparison to the feeling I had on my 1999 bike during climbs and rock gardens. I went to the bike shop and let the manager know that when I rode my older bike, when I turned the pedal on my old bike my wheel responded right away, and that's not happening on the new one. There is a delay that hung me up a few times. He asked me about my bike and I let him know that I had updated the drivetrain to all XT components and added a wheel set with Chris King hubs...around 2007. He then explained that it was the engagement on the hubs...that the DT Swiss hubs were about 12 degree and the Kings were 5 degree. He then mentioned that he had built up a wheel set with Whiskey carbon rims and I9 Hydra hubs, which he added had a .5 degree engagement. They were just collecting dust in the storeroom and he offered them to me for a highly discounted price. I had already spent more than I expected on the bike and declined initially. I took another long ride the next day, loaded up the bike, and headed straight to the shop to have the other wheel set installed. The loop that I was doing on a regular basis on the old bike, and the new one with the DT Swiss hubs, is barely a challenge now with the I9 hubs. Now I'm happy to say that I'm no longer riding like it's 1999, but I feel the same age as I was in 1999 on this bike with the I9s...the most fun I've had MTBing since the early 90s. I'm a big fan of the I9s...

[JohnHoranzy]

I just ride on roads and gravel. I think my Shimano Deore and Deore XT are good enough. This was a good video because I can now disregard all the hype. Also apprsciated the hub tear down.

[sebastiannai]

I am guilty of becoming spec obsessed when shopping for hubs. I now have a variety of high engagement hubs, and I feel like once you go above ~80 POE, there are diminishing returns, and that the only time I really notice is when ratcheting which doesn't happen very often in my riding. What I do notice much more is that the higher engagement changes the pitch and it becomes more annoying the higher you go. Also, the larger your wheel, the more you'll notice engagement, ie 29" you'll notice more than 20".

[James-opls]

You practiced with the Torch then tested the Hydra. This review is flawed

[PedalingDave]

I went with Project 321 and got them prior to the Hydras being released. One (small) reason I went with P321 was due to them being a bit less common in my area.
I've spent several months on them with zero issues.
Hub has 1.7degree/216 POE so falls between older Torch and new Hydra as far as engagement goes.

[shep-dog]

Putting I9 hubs and wheels was terrific upgrade for me. Engagement definitely makes a difference for me: those half/quarter pedal strokes are more effective when you need them most.

[travistweedle]

I upgraded from DT Swiss 370 hubs on my Roval Wheelset to I9 wheelset and i have to say going from 9degree engagement to .54 degree engagement super noticeable.

[piccolo]

"Do you notice hub engagement?" YES! Honestly, Industry Nine hubs "ruined" bike wheels for me. The instant I jump on a bike with more than 7 degrees of engagement I can immediately notice it and it's not good. I absolutely love I9 hubs because the INSTANT i start moving the pedal I've got power being applied to the rear wheel. There's no dead space. This makes it really awesome when I'm climbing technical climbs and I need to backpedal or ratchet every so often. Plus they sound COOL!

[Guineson]

When I started on my first real MTB it had DT Swiss 350 hubs with 18t ratchet and it was fine as I progressed as a rider, then I upgraded to the 54t ratchet system and was blown away by the improvements it provided in my technical riding. I now have a custom Bronson V3 and had a custom wheelset made, I went with Project 321 hubs with 216 POE & quiet pawls. I love high engagement, but hate the buzz noise so P321 and onyx were my top options. P321 is also made in the USA and have amazing customer service. Until Hydra came out I believe they had the lowest engagement angle available too @ 1.7 degrees. IMO anything below 8 degrees is tits 👍

[MTBDennis]

For me high engagement is a necessity. Where I live, there are a lot of janky tech climbs, wherein backing-off and half pedaling up the trail in some parts is needed. Not doing so results in a lot of pedal strikes.

[devon]

I'm on a ritchey hub I wish I was on a hub with more engagement. I've loved the sound and build of i9 wheels.

[RusticRussellAdventures]

My bike came with XT hubs. Nice
Immediately upgraded to Hope P4's. Very nice.
Just laced up some Hydra's. SICK engagement. Like many are saying... different levels of engagement for different purposes.

[DrDrolly]

I got a cheap dt swiss hub 18 poe and i really feel it. The distance the pedals travel before there is torque is very noticeable. I don't really feel it while riding but very much so when practicing bike control. When you paddle while wheeling its the worst but also annoying while track standing and riding reverse.

[jonathanrendonzapata]

Jonathan from Colombia here... I run DTswiss 350 54t ratchet... love the engagement and the angry bees running behind me... totally helped with the technical uphill pedaling avoiding a huge dead spot I had on my previous 3 pawl dt 370 that came stock wit my Santa Cruz HT LT... love ibis and your sponsors... I want to be like u when I grow up 🤣 you rock buddy!

[STLMTB]

I know this video is years old, but I want to offer an observation. Your second run which was always with the I9 hydra, you always have the wisdom and experience of the first run. In order to have a better test, I would have also done ever other run with the other hub so you can see if the second run is better due to previous experience. Just an observation. Great video Jeff!

[gekkardboy]

Nice breakdown on the new hydras. I do notice engagement between my bike that has King hubs over the one that has stock wheels/hubs, especially when climbing tech.

[venivelovici]

I’ve been on Hydras for the last 4 months and can appreciate the high engagement when there are slow tech moves to be made. Most of the time I’m a sit and spin rider - as you know our Bham climbs are generally long.
Performance and build quality of these i9s are tip top. They make for an awesome wheel laced to Crank Bros Synthesis rims. That said I *do* prefer a quieter hub such as my p321’s.
PS Great vid - I love that beach!

[charlesharmon]

After finally upgrading my wheels I do notice engagement more and appreciate the faster engagement. Everyone told me that I would get used to the sound of the I9’s (torch) but I still find that a little annoying. I also have a set of wheels with Onyx hubs and so far I do prefer those. Great videos, wishing you a speedy recovery!

[piercewasmund]

Sorry, I know i am writing this comment late. But, Using the Hydra and Torch in your test is really unreasonable (probably) for most of your viewers. Those are high end components used by a high end rider. I am intermediate and looking for solid info on engagement. I realized my engagement was sub-par after advancing to more technical terrain. I have a DT swiss hub with 18 tooth star. About 20% engagement. I actually lose the pedal, in flats, changing gear. I am in the process of my of upgrading rachet stars. Which, is why I am reviewing this video. I personally would like to see a video that compares an engagement of 20-10% vs 10 or less. I really believe this is more realistic to your viewers. Thanks, I really enjoy your content.