Questions mount about safety of Titan submersible

CNN's Veronica Miracle speaks with Doug "DJ" Virig, a contractor who worked on the ill-fated OceanGate Titan submersible and had concerns about its safety. CNN"s Jake Tapper discusses with David Pogue, a journalist who filmed a now-viral story about the vessel. #CNN #News

[Westlander]

David is being way way way too charitable to Stockton Rush here. As he mentions, all the industry professionals told Stockton this was extremely dangerous, that this isn’t how subs should be built, and that he needed to follow industry protocol. Instead he ignored all of them because he thought he was this cool, outside-the-box guy, and now five people are dead. Those industry standards and protocols are in place for a reason.

[reecom]

The “fake it till you make it” or “think outside the box” motto is getting out of hand. Oceangate CEO Stockton Rush having an undergraduate degree in Aerospace Engineering and suddenly becoming an expert in both deep sea exploration and material science of carbon fiber for underwater vessels is a lot like Elizabeth Homes, a college dropout, who suddenly becomes the world’s leading expert in blood testing technology and founding Theranos.

[rosskennedy]

Stockton Rush was a Snake oil salesman. Let’s discuss this soberly. The ONLY reason Stockton Rush made a carbon fiber hull, knowing the titanium alloy hull was proven, was because it could be larger diameter. That way he could fit more people and make it a viable business venture. It was about the money, nothing more, nothing less. Because researchers and scientists had already established the method needed to be safe. That is why he didn't want SMEs and wanted younger people and didn't want it tested. He didn't want anyone getting in the way of his business hustle. And by calling the passengers crew members he avoided having to get it permitted, by the U.S. Coast Guard, to carry passengers. Greed, Greed, Greed.

[clivewarner]

I'm a retired engineer and I've seen problems with epoxy fibre products caused by the chemistry. Epoxy requires an oxidising catalyst to harden. The big problem is that, inevitably, excess oxidizer remains in the material, unreacted. Normally it causes no problem under normal pressures and temperatures. However, if exposed to a high electrical voltage, the oxidizer begins to react with the substrate; it burns. In the case of Titan, carbon fibre was the substrate. Carbon is a fuel (EG, charcoal). At the bottom of the ocean, Titan subjected the carbon fibre to unimaginable pressure (38 Bars). Has anyone ever tested the stability of carbon fibre at that pressure? I suspect that a creeping reaction may occur, as the catalyst oxidises the carbon fibres. Each dive making the problem worse.

[leila]

Unfortunately, I think they did know something was wrong for a brief period. In James Cameron's interview he said the hull had warning sensors and apparently they were trying to quickly ascend when the sub imploded.

[wateriestfire]

His quote about being outside the box is so fitting.. Given the options when I'm that deep, I'd much rather be inside the box than where he is now.

[ange]

What's sad is the IMAX and VR robotic submersible videos gives a better view of the Titanic on the ocean floor than a view from the fisheye glass of a floating coffin.
Also a lot cheaper.

[JacobStein]

Stockton Rush was the Elizabeth Holmes of deep sea tourism. He built a cheap and unsafe submersible in the hopes of making bigger profits. Specifically the passenger area needed to be spherical not oblong and needed to be made of metal not carbon-composite. After being weakened on previous dives the carbon-composite shattered about halfway down on this dive. He gambled that nothing would go wrong. He lost the gamble and now he and four other people have paid with their lives.

[TA]

That thing was not a sub, it was a glorified tub. I understand the desire to save money. It's something we all do. Why get the $60 brake pads when the $40 pads will suffice. However there are times when going cheap is not an option. That was the case in this situation. You don't have to be a structural engineer to know that diving to the depth the Titanic is located on the ocean floor requires a vehicle that can withstand a hell of a lot of water pressure. Long story short, don't cut corners when it comes to your life.

[traildoggy]

Everyone thought he was crazy, but it turned out he was just wrong.

[livethemoment]

I work in NDT, nondestructive testing, of aircraft components. Testing is done prior to assembly of the plane and after certain amount of hours of operation, parts of the plane are re-tested again to ensure that no cracks or failures of any type have started to form. This Rush fool was obviously cutting corners, he should have been NDT testing the Titan after every dive.

[caseroj]

I would have to agree with the CBS reporter. One of the fundamental tenets of engineering design involves the study of the different coefficient of thermal expansion of structures made of heterogenous materials. You are not only dealing with freezing cold temperatures at the bottom and them balmy temperatures at the surface but all materials behave differently to mechanical stresses as well. It's very likely a microfracture developed somewhere at a boundary between the disparate materials and that eventually led to the catastrophic failure of the vessel. Mr. Rush should have subjected his design to more stringent testing protocols but of course that all costs money and when you cut corners to keep from going bankrupt the results are all too predictable!

[traceymitchell]

For 250k they were going to convince those passengers that all the paperwork was just a formality and that fixer upper piece of tin was safe. I don't doubt the CEO's ego was that big that he wouldn't allow himself to see the flaws. At the end of the day though these people were prepared to take the risk and I am glad for them and their families their demise was quick and not the living hell we thought it could be, hopefully that will at least bring some comfort. Titanic is not a theme park for the rich for thrills, it's a grave site. Time to respect those lost and leave Titanic alone and prevent more needless loss of life. My thoughts are with the families of those who died.

[andrewlim]

It is just as David Lochridge described would happen before he was fired by Rush:

"he requested that the corporation do a scan of Titan's hull rather than depending solely on acoustic monitoring, which would only catch a problem 'milliseconds before an implosion.'"

[ronmckay]

The sub should have been retired after a few dives for the same reason that NASA retires space shuttles. The materials that these vessels are made from becomes fatigued and not sound. The same thing happens to airplanes. Small cracks develop and if they are not detected catastrophic failure happens. It's basic engineering principles that determine the lifespan of structures like a submersible. Pressure and temperature are brutal on any materials.

[penzman]

David who was once onboard said Rush told him he had developed some of it''with consultation from NASA and BOEING'' . I suspect he was bragging, selling his product and that never happened, all it was is he had access to exotic materials that NASA/BOEING had tested or used before on their own, but there was never any direct NASA/BOEING consultation with him regarding the hull. One button on the wall, a game controller, parts from a hardware store, no ping or locator, seems to me like a dangerous excess of eagerness affecting safety. The guy wasn't honest with himself to begin with, even less with his passengers.

[bt]

When people like James Cameron, Bob Ballard, and Josh Gates ALL speak out against the company and ring the alarm bells about the safety of the submersible, I think that's sadly all that one needs to know. Now as to why OceanGate was still allowed to operate, despite these blaring safety issues, is perhaps a deeper issue. And one that should seriously be addressed going into the future for the sake of all of the adventure tourism industry.

[Wyldfae]

Sure. Innovation is a good thing. But taking this craft down to those levels repeatedly was something Rush was warned about. Non contiguous surface was bound to have a problem eventually. And according to those plugged into the community, they probably had warning. There were safety warning devices that went off if an imminent major issue approached. Community says they had dropped their ballast and were attempting to head to the surface before the implosion. Doesn’t seem like they got far.

[charlesgrant-skiba]

NASA and Boeing did not co-create or certify this "vehicle" or any of its components. They were only asked by the constructor to consult on certain issues. They recently issued statements on the matter, disassociating themselves from any complicity in the creation of this project. Therefore, the statement that this construction, to some extent, was planned or created with the participation of NASA and Boeing specialists is not true. It looks rather like a marketing distortion on the part of the constructor (intentional?), who in practice implemented his own design vision, which did not meet most of the official requirements for this type of objects.

[decentrifytech]

As an ex-nuke submarine I want to continue to post this educational comment that I have been:

There is a reason why submarines are made of steel and titanium and not carbon fiber. Steel and titanium have deformation before they give way, giving time to drive yourself up to the surface or emergency blow. Carbon fiber has no give - when it fails, it fails catastrophically. Anyone who has seen a carbon bikes or carbon auto parts blow apart knows that carbon fiber, though strong and light, fails instantly AND catastrophically.

I have heard hearsay reports that this particular sub had cracks in the hull they knew about - if that turns out to be the case and they dove anyways, that is pure negligence.

But looking at the design of this vessel, from its laminated carbon fiber lay, to end caps being glued on, with no CO2 or moisture scrubbing for the inner atmosphere visible or in the public design specs, considering the differential expansion rates of the dissimilar materials that are exposed to salt water, pressures and thermoclines, this was inevitable. As an ex Navy nuke submariner, I am wondering what testing was done and what sort of processes were in place? How much testing was done? Did they Xray the hull right after production and after every dive, especially with a pressure hull that is layered carbon fiber? 1 crack or 1 layer that did not lay and bond properly or that came unbonded after numerous pressure cycles and that hull would crack at any time.

Anyhow, my educated speculation guess is that the carbon fiber hull shattered and they were all instantly obliterated feeling nothing. King Neptune now has more souls in his watery underworld.

Looking at this company I get the feeling of another 'vaporware innovation' like Theranos, The Hyperloop or Nikola - but this time instead of people losing money, they lost their lives.


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