The worst naval decision of WW2? - The Destruction of PQ17

#ConvoyPQ17 #Historigraph #CuriosityStream

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The Descent by Kevin MacLeod

Crypto by Kevin MacLeod

[historigraph]

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#ConvoyPQ17 #Historigraph #CuriosityStream

[JamesTobiasStewart]

May I just pop in to sing the praises of HMS Ayrshire; a converted fishing trawler which was one of the only escort ships left after the scatter order. Despite being ordered to proceed to Russia alone, it's commanding officer, Naval Reservist Leo Gladwell decided that was stupid if he and the merchantmen were going to the same destination anyway and started working on a plan.

He gathered up a small number of merchant ships and told them to follow him North to the pack ice, where he had them stop, paint the ships hulls white and put all the linen cloth they had out on deck so as to look like icebergs. After some time waiting (where at least one plane went over and apparently bought the subterfuge because it didn't fire), Gladwell led his little convoy towards Russia, picking up a few new ships along the way and successfully escorted his mini convoy into port intact.

Amazingly (because no one thought to tell the escorts that Tirpitz wasn't in play even when it'd become obvious it wasn't) he even devised a tactic to try and fight Tirpitz (Gladwell was brave but he wasn't insane enough to think he could win, just hope to stall it while the merchant ships ran for it), which was to rig all the depth charges he had into a big bomb mounted to the prow and then if Tirpitz showed up; try to ram it and detonate the bomb. To me whether that would work is almost academic, just the fact that he was seriously having to consider how to fight a battleship with an armed trawler because of Pound's cock-up is just insane.

[grendelgrendelsson]

Sir Dudley Pound was already suffering from the brain tumour that would kill him in 1943 when these events took place. The effect of his illness at the time of ordering the convoy to scatter can never be known but it was probably having an effect on his judgement. My uncle served on convoy escort vessels from 1939 onward on North Atlantic, Mediterranean and Russian convoys. As a gunner aboard HMS Belfast, he took part in the Battle of the North Cape against the Scharnhorst and was also at D-Day. He survived numerous combats only to die of asbestos related illness caused by the asbestos dust falling from pipe lagging aboard ship and it is also possible that the flash-hoods that were worn in action were also impregnated with asbestos.

[Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

HMS Trinidad: Trust nobody, not even yourself.

[colonial]

I met a survivor of PQ-17 in Antwerp, Belgium. He had been a 17-year old merchant sailor at the time and told me that he thought that it was a great adventure at the time and had no idea of what was happening to the other ships in the convoy once they had scattered.

[philwoodfordjjj]

Always remember; as soon as a merchant seaman's ship was sunk, and he hit the water, he was "paid off" meaning that his pay stopped and the ship's owners had no more responsibility toward him.
If the seaman should make it back the UK, there was little to look forward to other than abuse (as he had no uniform) and to ship out again, facing the same increasing risk.
These facts are by and large overlooked.

[randomguy-tgok]

What makes PQ17 remarkable is that it's both an intelligence failure and a command failure amongst the Allies - both of which were (in both the mid- and late wars) very rare.

[kesfitzgerald]

Pound's decision may be explained in that he was ill with an undiagnossd brain tumour, which undoubtedly impacted him mentally and physically and of which he later died.

[theofficialsikris]

HMS Trinidad: "Fire Torpedoes!"
Torpedo: *Uno Reverse Card*

[DaveSCameron]

Our grandfather died on board HMS Celendine on these Arctic Convoys, aged just 31 he never met his new born son, our late father... #heroes!

[jakeflfirelegend]

Just shows how crucial it was cracking enigma if 1 day were it couldn’t be read it created such a panic

[liammoore]

My great grandfather was on the HMS Pozarica for PQ17 and thankfully survived the war as well as the convoy. He was mentioned in a book by Godfrey Winn, my great grandfather had Sunk 4 times before the PQ17 convoy had happened. So blessed to have photos of him on the convoy and his certificate/Arctic Star!

[Snootyboss]

My Grandfather, George Gibbons was a TAG on Norfolk in PQ17. He was in the Walrus that had to ditch after the scatter order. The Palomares towed her to the Soviet Union. Whilst he told me many stories of his time in the Navy from a boy sailor in 1926 and his travels around the world, some of which were horrific (especially in China), he never discussed PQ17.
My grandmother said he used to wake screaming for years after the war. I've spoken with a crew member on the Palomares and donated some of his photos to Yeovilton fleet Air Arm museum.
I've still his log book from his time on swordfish and walrus and the entry that day just says "aircraft failed to return".
It wasn't over when they got to Russia as they weren't trusted due to the Russians refusing to believe so many ships had been lost.
It was an awful and needless loss of life. Certainly not the Royal Navy's best day.
Should anyone make a video of the RN in the China station at Wei hei wei I have a lot of photo's still. Happy to provide copies of anything that I have as long as acknowledgement of the photographer is given.
A great upload and very well done, thank you.

[peters]

Imagine being a sailor in the freezing arctic at night with imminent danger of being shot by submarine, battleship or torpedo plane, and with storms and the danger or running aground. Pretty stressful.

[Almond]

I'm glad you've covered this, I knew of the tale from a Clarkson special but never fully understood sir Dudley Pound's dilemma, figuring it to be a completely unnecessary decision. Knowing the full context of the stretched British navy makes the decision more understandable, whilst still completely unacceptable, you should never abandon a convoy like that.

[Richard-odyd]

I spent 3 Winters in the North Atlantic chasing Ivan in the 70s and we all knew about PQ17 on the Bridge Watches .
The U-BOATS and CONVOYS were never far from our minds even when sailing detached from our Task Force .
I've personally done 5 transits of convoys in those waters .

[shathriel]

These convoys were amazingly dangerous, with threats from the air, surface and from beneath the waves and then you had the elements, the spray would freeze the decks and cause weapon malfunctions with severe storms thrown in. The cruisers Trinidad and Edinburgh were both lost at a time when they were sorely needed, Edinburgh took a fair bit of damage and went down with a lot of gold on board. Still, one of the most decisive convoy battles of the war took place along these routes, JW51b leading to the Battle of the Barents sea, later to be followed by the JW55b and the Battle of the North Cape.

[joelspringman]

Oh, my gosh, that's awful!!!
I don't think the Merchant Marine has gotten even MINIMAL recognition for their contribution and sacrifices to the defeat of Hitler! I have only met one or two men who were in the Merchant Marine, and my sense of awe is as high as it is for men who served in the regular armed forces. Their service was VITAL to Allied victory over Hitler. These are unsung heroes! We owe them a debt of gratitude, to say the least!!!

[Geckobane]

I watch documentaries for two main reasons: to learn new things and to help organize my mind into a peaceful state to help me fall asleep. This one satisfies both of those competing criteria. Well done.

[philiphumphrey]

Excellent documentary. One slight point, according to commander Broome's book "Convoy is to Scatter", he wasn't ordered to join the cruiser force, he wasn't given any orders at all other than scatter the convoy. But seeing the cruiser force withdrawing westward and assuming they were going to fight the Tirpitz just over the horizon, he asked Hamilton permission to join his squadron, as his destroyers had torpedoes and would have been at least a distraction for the Tirpitz. Hamilton approved the request.