#689 Michael Tomasello - The Evolution of Agency: Behavioral Organization from Lizards to Humans

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Dr. Michael Tomasello is Emeritus Director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, and James F. Bonk Distinguished Professor at Duke University. He is considered one of today's most authoritative developmental and comparative psychologists. He’s the author of several books, including The Cultural Origins of Human Cognition (1999), A Natural History of Human Thinking (2014), A Natural History of Human Morality (2016), and Becoming Human: A Theory of Ontogeny (2019). His most recent book is The Evolution of Agency: Behavioral Organization from Lizards to Humans.

In this episode, we focus on The Evolution of Agency. We talk about agency from an evolutionary perspective, focusing on the feedback control model of agency, and go through evolutionary history, touching on the first animate actors, the first goal-directed agents, the first intentional agents, the first rational agents, and the first socially normative agents. We talk about some representatives of each of them. We discuss where goals come from, the role of emotions, the understanding of agency in animals, social norms, and the role of culture in collective agency. We also discuss the aspects of sociality that are uniquely human. Finally, we talk about free will.

Time Links:
00:00 Intro
00:35 What is agency from an evolutionary perspective?
06:09 The feedback control model of agency
08:51 The first animate actors (C. elegans), and the first goal-directed agents (lizards)
11:29 The first intentional agents (squirrels, rats)
14:49 Where do goals come from?
18:26 The role of emotions
20:48 The first rational agents (great apes)
27:05 Which animals have an understanding of agency?
30:55 The first socially normative agents (humans)
36:49 Are social norms exclusive to humans?
38:41 The role of culture in collective agency
41:09 What aspects of sociality are uniquely human?
42:44 Free will
44:57 Follow Dr. Tomasello’s work!
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[zobko]

The topic of consciousness/sentience in animals is intriguing and touching, thank you for sharing the interview! 💝

[PaulTopping]

Good pod. Sync problem with Dr. T's sound and video.

[sdmarlow]

Behavior, all the way down. So happy to hear him describe consciousness in terms of reflection.

[alanjones]

It's probably a good idea to just avoid the term "free will". The term apparently debuted with Tertullian. For him, it was a providential entity that served to justify an argument about Christian sin. The term continues to be used in like manner. I suggest that terms with metaphysical baggage be avoided when speaking of agency.

[richardbrucebaxter]

Free will typically pertains to the philosophical question/proposition of whether an individual could make a different decision under the same circumstances (not whether it thinks it can), and if it could what precisely determines that decision (for example why would an independent substance/soul make decision A and not B).

[richardbrucebaxter]

Nature does not ultimately select for organism survival behaviours, it selects for genome survival behaviours, and a genome is distributed throughout its population. Individualism is an evolutionary artefact of not being able to coordinate group survival behaviours (lack of intelligence, language, etc).