The Loot Box Question - Designing Ethical Lootboxes: I - Extra Credits

Why does the games industry seem to prefer lootboxes over other types of microtransactions nowadays? Why are they so easily manipulated to abuse players' agency? How can we make them better?
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♪ Intro Music: "Penguin Cap" by CarboHydroM

♪ Outro Music: “High Tide” by FoxyPanda

[extrahistory]

Let's build a better lootbox, together. We're kicking off a 3-part series exploring why the "lootbox model" is so popular these days, why so many publishers are messing it up, and how we can improve this method of monetization so the players are winning too.

[cachotognax]

Thank you for citing a study and then putting no link to it in the description.

[pantslesswrock]

Okay but what James SHOULD have asked is "Who would pay $80 for the usual $60 games but those games are guaranteed to be without micro transactions, day one paid dlc, and loot boxes, and are guaranteed to have a completed campaign?"

People don't want to pay $80 because they DONT TRUST THE INDUSTRY TO NOT CONTINUE THE SAME PREDATORY AND INSIDIOUS PRACTICES.

[GoobleGabble]

The "myth" about children stealing their parents' credit and debit cards is true, though. It has been common since the days of Xbox 360 with Fifa. This comes from my own limited experience, admittedly, but as someone who worked customer service for various banks for a good few years, nearly every day would have a call about possible fraudulent activity from Microsoft. It is surprising how many people will defend their kids too; I would start by asking if they had any children, did they have a console, did they own Fifa (or any other games that featured microtransacactions) and after establishing all that, they would still say "My son wouldn't do that!" Worst thing is that the banks I worked for didn't consider it fraud so it would get escalated to Microsoft who rarely refunded, except occasionally as "good faith" and this was usually after a certain threshold had been reached - couldn't say the exact amount, again from limited follow up I was able to do, but a few thousand pounds - refund. A few hundred? Tough luck.

tl;dr - shadiness with kids and microtransactions was surprisingly common going all the way back to Xbox360, with the banks and Microsoft both considering this not fraud.

[eventhorizon]

8:15 "Game companies, please don't be evil about this"
It's almost, like ExtraHistory is a complete different channel, completely dislodged from thisone with this logic.
As if we never had seen this a thousand times in the past, I mean you guys made whole series about the South Sea Company Bubble and said YOURSELF: "If a system can be exploited by the people who benefit from this system, they WILL do it!"
I conclude like I started this comment with your own words: "This is a good lesson, I hope we learn it someday..."

[AshenVictor]

The thrust of this argument is that aggressive supplemental monetisation is necessary for AAA fidelity and AAA fidelity is necessary, but that's just not true. Monster Hunter World looks fantastic, and there are no lootboxes or microtransactions at all in the game. Nier Automata doesn't have AAA fidelity at all, in fact it looks pretty primitive compared to most similar open world games, and yet it was a big sales success for its budget. Same with Nioh, looks great, only has traditional (and substantial) DLC, Dark Souls, only traditional and substantial DLC.

All these games are successful, they make money by selling at a standard price point, using non-exploitative business practices where you pay for a thing and get the thing you paid for, and the value proposition of what you pay for is acceptable to the player.

The "but they need it" line is simply wrong, they don't need it.

Also, you might not be able to sell that overwatch skin back to Blizzard (yet), but many games allow you to sell the contents of lootboxes to other players, like that $61, 000 CS:GO rifle skin, and the marketplaces for those sales kick back to the developers. (Also the reason there are a lot of cheaters on PUBG playing from China, because they're farming lootboxes for items to sell and China already had the "farm digital items for real world sales" infrastructure from the WoW gold farming days). So yes, the ability to cash out is absolutely there for many of these systems.

[jfmcshane]

I wonder if when he asked the 80 dollar question if he would have phrased it " would you pay 80 dollars for a game and have no loot boxes or 60 bucks and have microtransactions and loot boxes" wonder how many more hands would have gone up

[Mynx]

Lootboxes lead to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering....

[StefanLopuszanski]

One thing I've been noticing a lot with monetization systems is bundling for exclusive content. Which basically forces players into getting content they didn't want to get some content they do want.

[henafoo]

Could you provide a link to the study that you looked at? It would have been a good addition to the description.

[jptq]

The main problem is that the industry WON'T regulate itself. Some companies will, but others will be as exploitative as possible to siphon money out of people in an unethical manner. These companies are too short sighted or lack enough empathy to not take advantage of people, so there NEEDS to be external regulation.

[Terezar]

I would agree with this stance more if companies like Ubisoft, EA, Warner Bros games, and Activision Blizzard were not posting RECORD HIGH PROFITS EVERY YEAR!

[adamepstein]

How about addressing that Activision/Blizzard patent that outlines how they will alter matchmaking and actual gameplay in order to psychologically manipulate players into purchasing more microtransactions/loot boxes? Or how EA said that suspending lootboxes in Battlefront II wouldn't affect its bottom-line?
When you addressed the predatory practices which you call "evil", you downplay them quite a bit. Battlefront, Destiny 2, and Shadow of War aren't niche, minor titles. These are some of the biggest games of the year, which are going to be some of the most played by casual consumers and occupy some of the biggest mindspace in the public. Including "evil" practices in these games is bound to hurt perception of the industry. Remember ET and Pac-Man for the Atari 2600? A handful of high profile games can sink the whole ship.

P.S.: If we're not sure if loot boxes are gambling until more study is done, wouldn't the ethical thing be to hold off on them until we ARE sure they're not preying on vulnerable individuals?

[abyssaljoey]

I have one problem with this: The AAA games that usually have lootboxes are the games that are going to sell well, Battlefront 2, Shadows Of War, AC Origins, Destiny 2, EA Sports games, those games were going to turn a profit without lootboxes (EA said so), in fact, I'm willing to bet that Battlefront 2 lost a lot of sales because it had lootboxes; we also have to take into account games like Nier: Automata, Ni-Oh, Persona 5, Resident Evil 7 and Wolfenstein 2, all AAA games without lootboxes, and we also have Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, an Indie game without lootboxes that looks on par with AAA games and it's cheaper.

[digiviceboy]

Hold on a second. Just hold on. You're saying just because I can't cash out for real money, it isn't gambling?
On a slot machine, the *ONLY* thing you can get is money. Which means that you gamble and gamble and gamble to try and get *more* money.
AS A PERSON WITH A GAMBLING ADDICTION, OPENING LOOT BOXES HITS ME SEVERAL LEAGUES WORSE THAN ANY CASINO EVER HAS. Because it isn't money I'm chasing. It's the skin that I want, it's the upgrade for something of my equipment; I'm not chasing my money. Which means, I'm not even paying attention to the fact that I put all my fortnightly pay onto buying more boxes, because I never ask myself, "How far down am I and how do I break even?".

Instead I tell myself, "Well... I'm already this far in, I'll just keep going until I get it."

Chasing my losses at a casino? I get to feel depressed about how far down in my chips I am that I still haven't gotten a return and you know what, maybe it's better idea to leave.

Buying lootboxes? I never see anything tangible and never feel anything other than the anxiety of the fact that I haven't gotten what I'm after and that it could be the next instantaneous click that gets it for me... and even then, once I have it, I realise how I've just buggered myself over entirely for something in a game. Does that help stop anything the next time? No. Because I'm friggin' well addicted to it.

Look. I love you guys. I really do. But this is just something that you cannot, in any meaningful way, state is, "For the fun of consumers and responsible people!" when they leave it, quite literally, out in the open as they do and REQUIRE you to participate in the RNJesus Boxes to get something cool and shiny that you can't get any other way.

I'll concede; you are right. It isn't gambling.
It's five hundred thousand times goddamn worse. It doesn't need any further study to figure that out.

As much I love you guys, the whole... "Companies are right to shoot for the stars and get as much money and profit as they can", rhetoric that you've been going on with for the last few weeks is really starting to kill the sentiment.

[Kwyjibo]

A LOT of goodwill has already been lost on lootboxes. You're going to be fighting an uphill battle here.

[norbertcsorba]

"dont be evil"

HA...HA...HA

[otakugril]

You cannot assume a corporate entity will regulate themselves. They never have and, if left unregulated, they will cut corners and prey on their employees as well as customers.

[timm_r]

I want a specific piece of merch in a game, why can't I just buy it? Instead I have to convert my actual money into a unique crypto-currency sold in carefully packaged increments so that you always need to buy a second bundle to stack the right amount of digibitcoins in your wallet for that initial purchase. Now I'm left with a static number of uselesscoin that doesn't purchase anything of interest. If I make one more purchase, tho...

It's all by design and intended to reach the lowest common denominator. Just like slots that are designed to always take in more than it gives away and percentages are adjustable.

Then we have the randomization on these boxes and that's what makes it complete bullshit. The argument that they are somehow comparative to MTG or baseball cards is also bullshit because the second hand market that exists for collectors of actual cards. Digital purchases outside of the platform they are intended for have no real-world second-hand value to us and is therefore manipulative by design. There really should be no debate.

[peterderbeste]

ubisoft told their investors, that they now make more money from microtransactions than from actual game sales. that means we are paying 120$ per game on average, not 80 or 90. they milk their customers till theres nothing left.