Did the Dorian Invasion Really Happen?

What really happened during and after the Mycenaean collapse? How were the Dorian city-states founded? These are only some of the questions when it comes to the Dorian emergence on Peloponnese following the Achaean demise. In this episode, we talk about the theory of the so called "Dorian invasion" and study the origins of the Doric Greek speakers in southern Greece.

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[KevinArdala]

I'm always reminded of a quote David Reich (the geneticist) uses in his Book: Who We Are And How We Got Here (p. 126):

"But the lack of archaeological evidence does not mean that there were no major incursions from the outside. Between 1600-1500 years ago, the western Roman Empire collapsed under the pressure of the Germanic expansions, with great economic blows dealt to the western Roman Empire when the Visigoths and Vandals each sacked Rome and took political control of Roman provinces.
However, there so far seems to be little archaeological evidence for destruction of Roman cities in this time, and if not for the detailed historical accounts, we might not know these pivotal events occurred." [Bryan Ward-Perkins: The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization.]

[Leptospirosi]

I heard somewhere that there were a serf class in the ancient Mycenaean society called "Doroi" (or something like that).
If we assume the Bronze age collapse was ignited by climate changes and the ruling class being unable to provide for the population, we could also devise some of the classes lying below the Achaean, to rebel again their rulers and establishing themselves as the dominant class in the society.
The tale of descending form Hercles was often used in Grece to provide a veil of nobility.

[pseudomonas]

According to Homer in Odyssey, the Dorians are already present among the poplulations of Mycenaean Crete. So for Homer, the Dorians are present in the Mycenaean period in the Hellenic peninsula. So it's possible that the Dorians are the inhabitants of the mountainοus terrains of Greece, who moved in the plains, with the decline of the Mycenean palace centers, and assumed control gradually. For this reason the Dorian is a more archaic dialect, in comparison with the Ionian.

[sasquatch]

I have the sense that the Dorians were an ethnic group that existed in the Greek world during Mycenaean times, that overthrew the ruling Mycenaeans with the aid of a small group of, ethnically related, warrior elites: the Heracleidae. I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong) that Achilles, (Who's physical description in the Iliad sounds Dorian to me), has a tenuous relationship to Heracles.

[HistorywithCy]

This is gonna be good... such an interesting topic!

[jlworrad]

I think many Victorian classicists and archaeologists overplayed the whole Dorian thing because, if only subconsciously, they liked the idea of invaders coming from more northerly climes in Europe and creating the wonders of classical Greece. Many were British, Germans etc. There was a vanity element to the theory.

[wednesdaynightbusiness]

I find it unlikely that Dorian was a Peloponnesian sociolect given that it apparently bore closer relation to Northwestern Greek than to neighbouring Achaean. Class and environment are huge influences on language but geographically related upper and lower class sociolects will be more closely related than any two geographically distant dialects. Also, the fact that Dorian dialects were scattered throughout Greece non-contigously points to migrants passing through some areas to settle in more desirable ones.

[Ian-yfuf]

A population of Doric speaking Greeks invading the Peloponnes is extremely plausible. The Greek dark arges are extremely murky, but mythological historical accounts often contain hints of truth. I think it's perfectly plausible the Dorians took the remains of palatial centers and towns after the sea peoples and overtook the Achaeans as the ruling elite in the regions they took.

[peterlorios]

The Dorian invasions or better, the return of Heracleidai are much more about various coup d' etats.

[petrapetrakoliou]

There are several periods of discontinuity in the archaeological record and of foreign presence at the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age. Difficult to know which one corresponds to the Dorian invasion, but there is no real reason to reject the historicity of such an invasion just because we can't decide which archaeological changes it may correspond to.

[theperipatetic]

I see no reason to doubt the basic narrative about the "Heraclidae" ending the line of Atreus through battle (however large or small an affair such a conflict was), establishing new dynasties across the Peloponnese with the power and prestige this garnered them, and then inviting some of their friends from up north. But none of this really seems to amount to a migration-type invasion, bringing everything all at once. Their expeditionary invasion was successful and over time more of them would have come, born out in the distinction with the periokoi in archaic and classical times. Perhaps we need to distinguish between different types of invasion, since some may fit better than others.

[Hypernefelos]

4:16 missed opportunity to say House Atreides...

Pausanias gives some more details about the alleged invasion. The Heraclides couldn't break through the isthmus at Corinth but they allied with an Aetolian, Oxylus, who led them across the narrow sea to Achaea (which wasn't called that yet, it supposedly got its name from all the Achaean refugees who went there and took over from the local Ionians afterwards). They then went through Arcadia (securing an alliance with the local ruler) and hit the Achaeans from behind. Oxylus himself led his Aetolians to Elis, where he succeeded in becoming king, but with equal rights for the local Epeians. This explained why the Elians spoke a dialect closer to that of the Aetolians than to any other Peloponnesians.

My guess is that such an invasion really did happen, but didn't involve complete population replacements. It may have been a result of previous instability and collapse rather than the cause of it, but whatever the case no part of Greece remained unaffected. Euboea had the least disruption and led Greece afterwards in culture and commerce, until the Lelantine War sapped the strength of its two major cities.

[sidritqafzezi]

There's enough proofs to support the theory of invasion. The problem is in what we consider by invasion in this case.
The only thing we know for sure is that Dorians came from the north of Peloponnesian. Probably from Acarnia or Thessaly or both. They were not seafarers.

[St.SebArL]

It was pretty much like the Norman conquest of England where we weren’t replaced by Norman’s we just had a large part of our aristocracy part Norman

[FutureMythology]

As a result of the continuous crop failures, many Achaeans either surrendered or joined forces with the Sea People. This led to a decline in trade and uprisings among some governing classes. In some regions, the tiny group of Heraclidae became the dominant class, with the support of the native Dorians in others.

[oltyret]

The Dorians seem to have done away with tailors. Suddenly, the Greeks appear to be wearing bed sheets that keep falling off whereas, in the Myceanean period, the standard was closely fitted clothing.

[firstchushingura]

The case that you westerners do not understand is that Greek History is much older than you think.
Ancient greek tradition reports 3 Cataclysms...
But Western history only one...
This is a fine example...

[joeshmoe]

Super cool, thanks for sharing with us FANAX

[tujek]

Yes king i've been waiting for this

[WarAndFame]

This seems to be taking place right in the middle of the invasion of the sea peoples? So how does that came in to play?