PRE-Tribulation Rapture Debate between Derek Walker and Michael Brown - Part 1

Does the Bible Teach a PRE-Tribulation Rapture?
This is part 1 of the special debate between Derek Walker and Dr Michael Brown that has been broadcast on Revelation TV.

Pastor Derek makes the case for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, and Dr. Brown for the Post-Tribulation Rapture. Is the Church called to go through the future time of God's wrath? Is the Coming of Christ imminent, or will we face the antichrist first?

Revelation TV:

Derek Walker Website:

Dr Michael Brown

[raymondschlichting]

While I am a post tribber I think a more important question is are you willing to lay down your life for Jesus? Jesus said if you are not willing to pick up your cross and follow him daily you are not worthy to be his deciple. My concern is that many haven’t thought about that because they think they won’t have to deal with it. As for me I have had to wrestle with this question in order to prepare myself for the possibility that it may come in my lifetime.

[terraloft]

I do think it is vital believers determine what to understand. This supports our decisions every day. If post -trib, then all the hype for peppers and stashing gold and goods would be important (whether one outlives the beheadings). With pre-trib, our focus is souls and salvation, intercession and witnessing!. A vast difference.

[andyoudontknowwhen]

What’s so great is we will all eventually find out and this isn’t a salvation issue either way. Come quickly Lord Jesus.

[JoshuaSmithFamilyRobinson]

Derek made a lovely romantic case for the rapture. But I appreciate how Michael wants us to hear the truth of Gods word and not just have a theology that tickles our ears and sounds nice to us but isn’t ultimately what God wants his church to believe.

[telabib]

Tribulation is people against Gods people, Wrath is God against the ungodly.

[andredutoit]

Thank you for this very interesting and important discussion. It is MUCH appreciated 😍! I used to be in favor of a pre-tribulation rapture, but lately I am more convinced of a post-tribulation rapture in the light of Scripture. The BEST is yet to come (Rev 22:1-6). To Father God be the glory for the things He has done ❤!

[revelationminister]

As I was watching this and hearing the impressive credentials that were given for each of the debaters, the Holy Spirit gave me some understanding. Many have been deceived by men of scholar. As believers we tend to look at a man's scholastic credentials or how many books they may have written to determine whether or not they are teaching truth rather than seeking the truth from the Holy Spirit who was sent to us for our understanding.

[flamingrobin]

"Behold i tell you a mystery we will not all sleep but we will be CAUGHT UP to meet the lord in the air" MYSTERY

[richardhaas]

You can't treat the church and Israel (the Jews) as one and the same. God deals with both differently.

[KevinShipp]

When I have a question about scripture, I go to Dr. Brown. He is one of the premier biblical scholars of our day.

[daniellynch]

I believe that no matter what we are to be ready and when the Lord returns the debate will be irrelevant and definatley forgotten . Let's take all this energy and qpply it to spreading the Gospel....thank you Lord yeshua

[Deacondan]

Mr Walker - the “Taken” is to where the vultures gather. That means judgement! Who was taken during Noah? The wicked were taken and the righteous left. This is about the 2nd coming. Only 1 second coming!

[davidfinn]

You just read exactly when it happens so why is there confusion? It plainly states at the “Last trumpet” no controversy or confusion with that.

[faithliftchurchlondon]

This is a very good debate and very much needed. I think pastor Walker is more broad and succinct. He wasn’t trying to antagonise Dr Brown. Both very good people. But my own study lead me to believe in pre-trib.. God bless you all

[louisaccardi]

Pastor Derek Walker provided one of the most winsome and best summaries of the Pre-Tribulation rapture I have every heard; excellent.

[connieanderson]

My story too, 40 years of pure trib. When I was 48 I began intense Bible study and things did not jive! Then I found Pre wrath and Zions Hope on YouTube. This makes more sense biblically.

[KrisVComm]

What seems to be missed, with regard to the marriage illustration, is that the marriage “consummation” time is listed in both the Matthew 13 passage and the Matthew 24 passage.
Unfortunately, the NIV uses the phrase “End of the Age”, when in fact the proper word in the Greek translates to “Consummation”. The chronology of the Consummation is clearly mentioned in each passage…
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the Consummation is the moment that the wheat are gathered at the Harvest. We are told that the wicked are FIRST gathered in bundles to be burned, AND THEN the righteous are gathered.
Likewise in Matthew 24, Jesus again uses the word “Consummation” and goes on to show that He appears from heaven in the clouds with a shout and a trumpet and He very clearly says this event is “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS”.
Both of these passage have clear chronologies and are both spoken directly by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Whenever we have CLEAR TEACHING on the subject, and not deductive reasoning, we are left with timing that is precisely in line with the words of Jesus in Matthew 24.
The only CLEAR and DIRECT teaching on our being gathered to Him is seen in three passages only:
1 Thess 4
1 Cor 15
Matt 24
These are the only passages in all of scripture which speak directly to the event. All others are inferred and are either indirect or oblique mentions which do not give straight forward explanatory doctrine.
In each of the three clear passages, we have the same clues mentioned:
- teaching that the dead in Christ are changed first
- teaching that we who remain alive will be changed
- teaching that a trumpet is blown
- teaching that there is a shout (voice of the archangel
- teaching that we will always be in the presence of the Lord from that point onward.

In 1 Cor 15 we are told some additional facts:
- the name of the Trumpet is “The Last Trumpet”
- death is done away with
- death is the last enemy

Now, what was not discussed in this mini-debate, is the important fact that Jesus Christ taught us precisely when all these things would happen. FOUR TIMES in John chapter 6, Jesus tells us that we will all be raised up (resurrected and changed, just as 1 Cor 15 describes) ON THE LAST DAY!
Even Martha affirms to Jesus that she knows Lazarus will rise again “ON THE LAST DAY”.
This means that the believers who were taught by Jesus Himself all regarded His Coming to be the same day.
Much of the pre-trib position seems to hinge on the discussion of “wrath” and the fact that “God has not appointed us to wrath”.

In order for Pre-Trib to be the timing that it requires, the verse on God’s wrath must refer to the bowls of wrath as being the same wrath mentioned by Paul in 1 Thess.

If Paul’s mention of “wrath” is not the same as the “bowls of wrath” found in Revelation, then it seems to me the strength of force for the PTR position becomes greatly undermined.

Here’s a problem I have with that assumption:
- it is an assumption and not clearly indicated.

- Paul never used “wrath” in this context in any of his other writings. He always used it in a general term (eg “The wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all unrighteousness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness”). That is to say, there were two classes of people, those who are saved and those who are not. The one group is not appointed to be the recipients of wrath on judgement day and the other is. One group is appointed to salvation. The other to wrath. This judgement is the great day of our Lord’s judgement

- perhaps the most troubling point to consider is that Paul, in Thessalonians could not possibly have been referencing John’s vision of the bowls of wrath being poured out. Why? Because John’s vision of the Apocalypse had not yet happened it been written. Without John’s written vision, there is simply no possible way Paul’s words of deliverance from God’s wrath could ever be interpreted to mean that wrath which is poured out during a 7 year tribulation period

- the natural meaning of the verse is obscured because the ones espousing the PTR position NEVER faithfully quote the entire verse. This is troubling to me because it either means that these folks don’t know the complete passage, or they are being deceptive by leaving out the first part of the verse which gives contextual clarity. Either way, we either have ignorance or violence done to the passage.

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

The meaning is very clear:
We are not as the rest of the unsaved world. We are the children of the day and we are to be armed with the tools he has given us. Don’t be afraid, for we are not destined for judgement and wrath of God. We are instead destined for salvation so have no fear of the battle you are in. Don’t worry about death. We will live together with Jesus. Since you have this assurance of eternal life, don’t be afraid and build up one another and keep exhorting each other just as you are doing.

The context is very clear! There is no mention of deliverance from the Great Tribulation. Instead, this is a verse of promise with regard to your eternal salvation, regardless of suffering and death. There is nothing in the context which even hints at the Great Tribulation.

It is forcing scripture and twisting scripture when we use such passages to infer what is not clearly in them.

This is the reason I left the PTR position…it requires great leaps in supposition and can not be established by clear passages read in isolation.

In order to establish the PTR doctrine, you must read your Bible in a cut and paste, almost patchwork/quilt-like manner. You have to be instructed as to how to take parts and pieces of verses and knit them together, meanwhile ignoring the clear passages.

I heard this speaker clearly say that the “Last Trumpet” in 1 Cor 15 was not in fact the last trumpet.

I heard him divorce Matt 24 from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, even though they all show the very same clues and traits (gathering in clouds, trumpet, shout, people being changed, etc, )

I understand WHY they cannot possibly allow Matthew 24 to be the same event. This is because Jesus is so very clear when He speaks of the event in Matthew 24…He tells us precisely when this gathering of the saints/elect is - “Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days”!!

Another thing which sailed by both parties was when the PTR proponent talked about our “gathering together to Jesus”. He actually used the very same words Paul uses but didn’t notice it.

What exactly does Paul say about our gathering together to Him?

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER TO HIM 2that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Wait a minute!!

Did you read that??
Our gathering together to Him, which BOTH PARTIES AGREED IS THE RAPTURE, will not happen unless there is first an apostasy and the Man of SIn is revealed!

PTR believers tell me that the church HAS to be first raptured in order that the Antichrist be revealed.

They tell me that the Antichrist is being restrained by the presence of the church in the world.

Yet, the Bible only says that”He who restrains” is the one holding him back. I am told by PTR people that since the Holy Spirit exists within believers this means the believers must be removed.

Do you see how they make assumptions and inferences rather than using CLEAR passages which have DIRECT DOCTRINE?

This is how they get into danger and end up preaching doctrines of men rather than simply believing clear scripture and then remaining silent where scripture is silent.

I will end as I began:
There are only THREE CLEAR PASSAGES which teach directly on the Return of the Lord:
- 1 Thess 4
- 1 Cor 15
- Matthew 24

These are the same event. Who will believe scripture and allow their hearts to be changed?

Our marriage to Him will be CONSUMMATED. He told us when our CONSUMMATION will be. He was very clear. Repent therefore and believe the clear Word of the Lord. Forsake your doctrines and stop playing dangerous games with the Holy Word of The LORD Most High.

[MrTnewell]

I was taught by pasture that has been to college and always said pre-trib, but now i am not sure, The most important point is to be ready, whether pre, post, God will give his children grace and mercy, but we need to keep our lamps trimmed and extra oil

[sylviawilliamson]

Thank you, Pastor Walker, you convinced me

[susanrietberg]

I’m so grateful to Dr Brown for explaining it so simply Wow!!!