Is Messiah the Father in Heaven (Isaiah 9:6)?

Some claim that Isaiah 9:6 requires Jesus to be the Heavenly Father? Is this true?

[jamilbiotech]

While admitting that "wonderful counselor" and "ruler of peace" can be applied to a man, Christian theologians argue that the phrases "mighty God" and "everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man's name. Thus, they contend that Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but God as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My God is He, " which refers to an ordinary human being (Job 32:1, 1 Samuel 1:l, 1 Chronicles 12:21, 26:7, 27:18). A similar Christian misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in their claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "God is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.

The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah's words. A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction (Matthew 21:19-21; Mark 11:14, 20-23). A mighty God does not take orders from anyone (Luke2:51, Hebrews 5:8), for no one is greater than he is (Matthew 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28). Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). He who is called the Son of God the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called everlasting Father. One cannot play simultaneously the role of the son and the Father; it is an obvious self-contradiction. He who advocates family strife (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace.

[garywilliams]

Interesting perspective, however the background music is distracting….

[lonelyguyofficial]

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that the Septuagint version of the verse is the original, "He is called the Messenger of great counsel.", as it fits Isaiah's later reference to the Messenger of Yahweh in ch63 (which ironically is switched up in the LXX so it doesn't mention the Messenger, unlike in the Masoretic).

And no, I'm not anti Masoretic. Just this and another verse in ps 110 fits better in the LXX.

[martin.asare]

The son of David as the son of God whose name is the everlasting father, means, He has the same identity as God the father. For this reason Jesus can say who has seen me has seen the father. Hence He is the image of everlasting father and hence He is everlasting and shares the same attributes as the father . This is also why He is the ancient of days in Rev 1 though he is the son of man, same as the father in Dan 7. .

The government upon his shoulder is the rule of David as Isa 22 says for which he gas the keys of David in Rev 1:5. By this, He becomes the father of the Nation which is the church as the NC Israel . In this sense He is also David. The anounted as Jer 31, Ezek 37. Psalm 89 ssays. Hence He is the father of the house of David meaning the head of the house who are the sons of God aka the church, who are the. Redeemed seed from all nayions asJer 32:14-22 says .

[kagex]

Good evening. What type of church would you go to with your beliefs now?

[littlefishbigmountain]

Interesting! Thought-provoking, as always.

Do you have a video on the title El Gibbor (often translated mighty God) in the same verse?

[OrthodoxCrusader-smxi]

Spirit Of The Son means rest in The Son

[GoldenCup]

I had a mini debate with Kelly in the comments of his debate video with you, and then when I cornered him on some questions, he made a livestream and supposedly refuted some of the points we believe. I saw the whole video and gave him another response in the comments where I biblically refute his eisegeses of the text using ONLY scripture, and now I'm waiting to see his response.

[jamilbiotech]

Reposting this comment since it’s relevant.

Challenging your claim on Isaiah 9-

Isaiah is known for the method by which he presents many of his messages through the use of prophetic names (Isaiah 7:3, 14; 8:3). In Isaiah 9:6, the prophet expounds his message by formulating a prophetic name for Hezekiah. The words of this name form a sentence expressive of God's greatness, which will become manifest in the benefits to be bestowed upon the future king in his lifetime. Thus, the name, though borne by the king, serves, in reality, as a testimonial to God. Hezekiah is called "a wonderful counselor" because this name is a sign, which foretells God's design for him.

The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying: "As I have thought, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand, that I will break Asshur in My land, and upon My mountains trample him under foot; then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder." This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? (Isaiah 14:24-27)
Be not afraid of the words that you have heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed Me. Behold, I will put a spirit in him, and he shall hear a rumor, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. (Isaiah 37:6-7)
Hezekiah is called "the mighty God" because this name is a sign that foretells God's defense of Jerusalem through the miraculous sudden mass death of Sennacherib's army.

Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come to this city, nor shoot an arrow there, neither shall he come before it with shield, nor cast a mound against it. By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and he shall not come to this city, says the Lord. For I will defend this city to save it, for My own sake, and for My servant David's sake. (Isaiah 37:33-35)
Hezekiah is called "the everlasting Father" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God will add years to his life. "Go, and say to Hezekiah: Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add to your days fifteen years" (Isaiah 38:5). Hezekiah is called "the ruler of peace" because this name is a sign, which foretells that God would be merciful to him. Punishment for lack of faith in the Almighty will be deferred and peace granted during the last years of his rule. "Then said Hezekiah to Isaiah: 'Good is the word of the Lord which you have spoken.' He said moreover: 'If but there shall be peace and security in my days'" (Isaiah 39:8). The fulfillment of the above-stated declarations is foretold in Isaiah 9:6, when, after the Assyrian defeat, Hezekiah's glory increased and peace reigned for the rest of his life (2 Chronicles 32:23). Archaeologists have found that there was a sudden expansion of Judean settlements in the years following the fall of the northern kingdom. This indicates that many refugees fled south, thus giving added significance to the statement "that the government may be increased." Hezekiah's kingdom is declared to be forever, for through his efforts to cleanse the Temple ritual of idolatry, even though apostasy followed under his son Menasseh, the Davidic dynasty was once more confirmed as the only true kingly rule that God would accept over his people "from henceforth and forever." The greatness of Hezekiah lies in his setting the stage for Israel's future. Hezekiah was a true reformer. He cleansed religious worship of foreign influence, purged the palace and the Temple of images and pagan altars, and reestablished pure monotheistic religion. In the long run Hezekiah's achievements would outlive him, leaving an everlasting, indelible impact on the history of his people. Thus, God, through Isaiah, bestows upon Hezekiah this name which honors the king by proclaiming the great things God will do for him, and, through him, for the people of Israel.

[jeremai]

I'm trying to understand this belief system. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is a created being?

[ChrisPyle]

Reading the rest of the Chapter (Isaiah chapter 6) it says the zeal of the LORD will accomplish this for the messiah. Jesus is the eternal father for the everlasting kingdom coming after Armageddon. What I don’t see here is any indication the two (Father and son) are the same or equals. In fact, doesn’t it seem to say the opposite? The father is making things possible for the son?

[OrthodoxCrusader-smxi]

Why do you think Jesus is called The Son Of God?

[OrthodoxCrusader-smxi]

the word binitarian is not in the Bible

[tariqhaddad]

Sorry but Isaiah said that he is called Almighty God so AbiAd Everlasting Father here means that he is the Father Himself not as a human father, based on Malachi 10, we have one God and Father

[OrthodoxCrusader-smxi]

The Verses you quote are just Verses debated be filioque papist and Orthodox LOL

[GoldenCup]

I left some comments on Kelly Powers channel on the video about your debate with him. This is my first time hearing of you and if I must wear a label for my belief on the Godhead then it would be "Binitarian." I came to this conclusion two years ago after debating oneness pentecostals and defending the trinity. I saw how they were BOTH wrong after much debating and much studying.

I will say that I don't believe this is a salvational issue and there shouldn't be division between Christians on this.

It seems your belief on what a binitarian is, is not the same as what I believe but please correct me if i'm wrong.

I believe that the Godhead is made up of God the Father and God the Son, in a literal relational UNION.

Jesus is God ontologically as the GOD THE SON. He comes from the same Spiritual DNA (if you will) as his Father. Just like animals beget animals after their kind, humans beget humans after their Kind, So God the Father begat God the Son from his Spirit (after his kind).

This is just a simple analogy that makes clear how both the Father and the Son can be God without being the same person.

So there's NO little God and big God, there's GOD THE FATHER AND GOD THE SON in a relational UNION, and they are the Holy Spirit which comes to dwell in those who believe.

So a Binitarian believes EXACTLY as a Trinitarian but instead of having 3 persons in one God, we have two persons in one God.

[billerickson]

Now, if i could find in the scripture, "God the Son" lol

Do you believe in the "eternal Son" doctrine? And if so, what IS Jesus before His birth? Would he be a man from eternity, a spirit?
Do you believe he is the "angel of the Lord" seen by Abraham, and others ?

[jamilbiotech]

I don’t want to spam you so if your want me to never comment again then that’s fine. We were engaging in an insightful conversation and you needed time to prepare a response. just following up to see if you have one.

I really want to engage further. I don’t want to come off as disrespectful or patronizing.

[magestic_seal]

Can make a video talking about binitarianism beliefs? Like how the trinity has simple breakdown videos can you make a video for the core ideas of binitarianism?

[Cors]

Hello sir...
Do you agree with the NIV Bible translation in Hebrews 1:10-12?
I dont believe the trinity...
And my 2nd question is Do you believe that the son participated in the creation of everything?.

Thanks sir....