Ben Finegold's Opinion on Draws

#benfinegold #chess #draws #MagnusCarlsen

[andresdavid]

Man, Ben's always speaking truth. Chess world is lucky to have you.

[sergi-]

I couldn't agree more. People keep blaming the format but I just think that it is the players who want to play super safe and because of that there are lots of draws.

[Leandrewzr]

Kasparov vs Karpov had a million wins?
That match had literally 40 draws. Out of 48 games, 8 were not draws, and they even had 17 draws in a row

[brianbreeden]

If we want decisive outcomes, we have to reward players for taking risks to achieve decisive outcomes. Until that changes, this issue won't go away.

[loafes]

Broadly speaking I agree with Bens point, although I do think it’s worth pointing out that engines have advanced so much over the past decade that they most definitely increase the probability of draws at the highest level

[sportmemer]

Magnus Carlsen is the world chess champion.
How?
He understands the situation.
Old chess GMs baffle me when they blame magnus for draws in drawish positions. Like they would find the wins there.
Truth is, they would search but they wouldn't find anything.

In game 6 magnus carlsen saw an opportunity to push for a win in a position which GM Benjamin Finegold called a draw, and he squeezed it for a long time until he won. You know what that did?
It shook his opponent.

Imagine if magnus squeezed every game. He would come up empty many times and that would add to the confidence of his opponent.

So it is wise of him to squeeze when he is comfortable with his evaluation. He is the best human chess player right now, and he is sitting there without a computer. So his evaluations have more value than anybody else.

That way his opponents remain in fear, that in a seemingly easy to HD position, magnus can just beat them.


Coming to this match, magnus did say he will push for a win because Ian is the faster player and there's no guarantee that he will win in the tie breaks.

But let's be honest.
Magnus is the better rapid player, he may be slow but he has certainly proved that he's a better rapid player than Ian.

[lollipophugo]

I think comparing the win rate even in Kasparov's time is a little disingenuous, let alone earlier when opening theory was much less advanced. For starters, the 1984 Kasparov - Karpov match had 17 draws in a row and some of them were the old gold 15 move handshakes, secondly both sides didn't have access to databases and engines that allowed concrete analysis and memorisation of serious theory out to 0.00 with certainty that they have not blundered something along the way. The only way to get an advantage at this level from the opening is to play something inferior and hope that he does not know all the moves, and try to find such a line where the correct way to play involves some unnatural/difficult moves. I don't think either player can be criticised for "playing too safely" when the only way to not play safely is to play something known to be bad, or do what Magnus is doing with white and play something the engine doesn't like in hopes that Ian will go astray. But I agree with your premise that "draws = bad" is a lukewarm take. I think Magnus would be playing more double edged stuff if his opponent was not Ian who seems to play better in such positions, and that "boring him to death" feels like match strategy. I don't think the games are evidence that Magnus is playing worse than Ian so much as it's evidence that he is taking more risks in his prep with white and getting a bad eval early as a result. We'll see what happens of course but it seems that Ian is more than up to the challenge so far.

[philiproy]

I really appreciate this candid take.

So basically, Ben is saying that Magnus' strategey for the championship is to draw all the games and win in rapid where he has a better advantage. I also blame him/can't blame him. lol.

Why doesn't FIDE make it so draws get you 0 and you play first to over 10 wins with a margin of 3 more points than your opponent?

It seems there should be some solution to the fact that the world champion of classical chess is decided by rapid games. It's just not right.

[tomwaters]

It's not just theory, super GMs have better middle game and end game technique these days. Better play means more draws, and that is chess.

[vigilante]

It's not true that Magnus didn't win any slow WC games in the last 2 matches (3:17 & 3:50) . Vs. Karjakin he lost in some Colle-Zukertort nonsense and in a later game he won a rook endgame (maybe R+N) to equalize.

[jackalexander]

mostly agree, although not sure the "picking 2 from the top 10 to have the most decisive game" is that good a way to highlight your argument. Feels to me like most people before this match would have had Nepo in the top 2 for that example

[bgdgdgdf]

Agreed with the premise, disagree with the conclusion. Magnus is always sacking stuff. Sacked a pawns left and right, sacking an exchange... and he still drew all the games fairly easily. He is intentionally putting himself into worse postions trying to get something winning, but he still draws. One of these days, he might succeed. Ian on the other hand hasn't really tried anything

[mihailzakharov]

I think a main point Ben missed was that a big difference now is the level of computer prep that the players now have. In some of these games they are blitzing out moves until there are only 1 or 2 minor pieces left and a few pawns each in a completely drawn position, which is going to end in a draw probably 99% of the time. They are just so well prepared and keep playing perfect computer moves. It doesn't matter who the players are in the future there will still be a lot of draws and certainly more than past matches Ben was talking about in this video, because any two players are going to be extremely well prepared even if it was firouzja and mvl.

Now players have lines of 20 or 30 or 40 moves home prepped which are super computer moves IMO that means they should get much less time. Back in those olden days the matches Ben was talking about the players had to find moves and plans over the board. Make the time control much less or make 960 the standard. With classical chess we are always going to get more and more draws in the world championship as the players are super well prepared.
Unless we just get a real rock and roll character who players b4 on move one or something but don't see that happening

[thomasdoggett]

Excellent analysis, thanks for cutting through the preconceptions.

[Robert-triw]

So - your comparing Magnus to a .500 football team? And he’s average but people talk about him all the time? Your way ahead of me and nearly everyone - but this take was pretty weak.

[sadeghsaati]

As a proud member of gawking rabble community, I totally agree with you Ben.

[rasputozen]

I really think the inventor of chess almost got it right but not quite. There should have been another win condition added to make it so a player wins every time. I'm sure many could come up with a better idea than this but something like winning by either 1) checkmate or 2) having your king touch all 4 corners.

[dmc]

Ben as usual saying it how it is. The hero we need but don't deserve

[dominikmatic]

Players are more prepared for everything now than before because of computers. Combine that with the fact that majority of games on highest level are Ruy Lopez, of course players will be more likely to draw now more than ever.

[ralphinoful]

Ben is a man of the people. He tells it like it is.