NATO Training and Lessons from the War in Ukraine - Interview with General Ben Hodges (Ret.)

How do you train an army to fight a war that is different from any you've ever experienced?

Support for Ukraine has played a vital role in shaping the progress of the war in Ukraine to date. Ukrainian efforts have heavily leveraged munitions and systems supplied by their allies - but training has also been a key area for allied support

Unlike weapon systems however, evaluating the performance of NATO's training efforts are harder to determine. Reporting tends to focus on the quantity of troops going through these programs, but less reporting focuses on whether the training properly matches the realities of the Ukrainian battlefield

To get a better understanding of NATO's efforts to train with Ukraine in the years leading up to 2022 and since the full scale invasion, as well as some of the lessons members of the alliance might be learning from the war, today I'm welcoming back retired US Army Lieutenant General Ben Hodges. LTG Hodges (Ret.) is a former commander of US Army Europe and engaged with Ukrainian forces extensively over his time in that role.

I'm very happy to welcome him back to the channel and want to stress that the opinions expressed in this interview are solely those of the individuals expressing them.

Patreon:

Relevant Reading/sourcing

ATP 3-01.81 Counter-Unmanned Aircraft Systems (C-UAS) August 2023

Reports referencing the wargame series leading up to the Ukrainian summer offensive:

RUSI – Preliminary lessons in Conventional Warfighting from Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine: February-July 2022

RUSI – Stormbreak: Fighting through Russian Defences in Ukraine’s 2023 Offensive

Example of reported feedback by Ukrainians on the limits of NATO training

“Inside the secret French camp where Ukrainians prepare for war”

Reuters reporting on US casualty estimate for Russian forces

Featured Reports and Image Sources

DPRK Shell quality

Caveats & Comments:

All normal caveats and comments apply.

No financial consideration was paid in relation to this interview – though I did request that a charity be nominated for a donation after the interview was recorded

LTG Hodges did not exercise any editorial control over this episode as a whole, including my comments or the slides that have been included

Timestamps:
00:00:00 — Opening Words
00:01:35 — What Are We Talking About?
00:03:37 — Lessons From The Battlefield
00:03:56 — Q: Ensuring Training Delivers Value
00:07:44 — Q: Training For The Environment
00:12:56 — Q: Keeping Up With Adaptation
00:15:56 — Q: Observers And Lessons Learned
00:19:41 — Q: Lessons So Far?
00:22:28 — Q: Wargaming and Assumptions
00:25:32 — Q: Training Pre-2022
00:28:08 — Q: Evolution Of The Training Mission
00:34:30 — Q: Training Efforts Post 02/2022
00:37:22 — Q: Higher Level Training Requirements
00:40:47 — Q: Force Regeneration
00:43:24 — Cohesion And Training As A Unit
00:44:36 — Answer Pt.2: Force Regeneration
00:46:09 — Training Program Abbreviation
00:47:35 — Evaluating 2023
00:48:21 — Q: Outcome Vs Commitment
00:52:12 — Priorities, Resources & THAAD
00:54:01 — Q: The Path To 2025
01:02:20 — Conclusion
01:03:50 — Channel Update

[PerunAU]

My genuine thanks to Ben Hodges for agreeing to set aside the time both for this interview, and for our discussions outside it.

While there may be a temptation in some NATO or allied militaries to look at the war in Ukraine as an aberration that doesn't reflect what a peer-conflict involving NATO powers would look like - I think there it's easy to argue that the disruption and valuable lessons are very much there, and that the speed at which those lessons are understood and reflecting in practice is going to be a significant factor going forward. Not just in the sense that they will shape how effectively NATO and allied trainers can prepare Ukrainian recruits for the battlefield, but also in how quickly allied militaries can make the investments and changes required to adapt to innovations and lessons of the war in Ukraine.

I hope you enjoy the discussion, and are prepared for a return to a more 'slide show as usual' episode next week.

[AkiseAk]

It is still amazing to see how this channel went from let's plays to interviewing US Generals

[mrzr]

You can really tell General Hodges enjoys speaking with you, Perun. It blows me away the kind of questions you ask and the fact that this is free. Thank you for all your hard work and for lending your bright mind to educate us. It is deeply appreciated

[medeology]

5 march 2022, I clicked on an obscure video called "All bling, no basics", because I was in a state where I lost both sleep and any connection to the humans in my life while reading and watching EVERYTHING related to Ukraine. Almost two years later now, I feel like that video was the first lecture in a university course I unbeknownst to myself enrolled in. And I enjoy it immensly. Some months after that first video, I also discovered that my son was watching as religiously as I, and since then it's a Sunday thing in our house, where he calls out "MOM! Perun just published!" and I go: "YEAH I KNOW, I get the notification too!" It's kinda weird and really great.

So, thank you so much.

[markoutlaw]

When Colin Powell moved to Secretary of State, he briefed the staff there about training. His first comment was during his time in the military, he spent about 25% of his time in training. After logistics as a critical element of success, training is next. One of the most important comments I took away from General Hodges interview was how you must build your training system to be able to learn from the students. A reverse flow on the concept of “Train the Trainers”.

[henrygibbons]

Perun has become one of the leading journalists of this conflict, covering aspects of this war in depth and with consistency, nuance, objectivity, respect, and a dose of snark that is most welcome in an age of sound-bite based media and 250-character Xeets (Xits?). I send a big “Thank you” to Perun!

[anaxis]

Gen. Hodges was in charge of our corps when I was in Iraq, and I saw him a few times in the DFAC; but his bird flew over our hooches often. It was easily recognizable & almost always had gunship escort. He was one of the only general officers I never heard anyone complain or make jokes about, which was also memorable. Good times.

[Teapode]

Saw Ben Hodges 100x, but that interview style is the best I've ever heard. Sound like oldschool BBC interview, when transition parts are replaced with commentary, important parts are picked up so good. Brilliant.

If only popular broadcasting had same level of interviewing, and not their quick, emotional engaging interviews made by scriptwriters who spents about 5 minutes on the topic.

[spooks]

One of the biggest things that is almost never talked about is how well documented the war in Ukraine is. There’s thousands of hrs of combat footage floating around so I wonder how exactly military’s are approaching and utilizing this gold mine of recorded experiences, if at all.

[markcameron]

It’s interesting to see how many systems that were regarded as obsolete, or soon to be decommissioned based on changes in military philosophy, yet are suddenly finding continued relevance and requirement.

[CapnDan]

Thanks for this one. General Ben has been the most forthright commentator regarding Ukraine for years now. Too bad he's not in charge of the US response.

[josephmann]

Ben Hodges impresses me every time I see him. The fact you had to donate to a charity in leu of him taking a fee? Kinda says it all after that interview. Truly a quality human being. A general who listens to sergeants and looses sleep over the wellbeing of privates? You’ll never do better.

[troyedson-smith]

Adding my sincere thanks for Perun University. Having General Hodges on was also terrific. For some time I've been a big fan of both of you.

[Nmille]

Seems like he was a leader, not just a commander. Or at least, was a commander smart enough to recognize his force's own shortcomings. Very insightful interview, I was actually surprised when he admitted and pointed out areas the US comes up short in.

[mikedittsche]

General Hodges is such a bright minded and knowledgable person, who can see the bigger context as well as the details in every situation. Always a pleasure to listen to his analyses.

[arround]

The main lesson is probably that with 40 leopards and 80 Bradleys without aircraft, you cannot penetrate the defense line that has been built for more than six months

[mattfitzgerald]

Thank you Perun for another highly informative and interesting interview. And my thanks to General Hodges, both for this interview in particular and for his continuing articulate and well reasoned support for Ukraine in general. Slava Ukraini!

[elizabethsproule]

This is awesome. Perun knows the right questions to ask and he has teased out answers from Ben Hodges that I haven't heard in any of his other talks.

[nian]

I wish Ben Hodges was still a commander in Europe. I hope the current leaders are listening to him. Thanks for the interview.

[trendnwin]

LTG. Ben Hodges is a great man with a great heart for Ukraine. Let us never forget the heroes who Defend Ukraine. Slava Ukraine!