Best Of: The Men — and Boys — Are Not Alright

We recently did an episode on the strange new gender politics that have emerged in the 2024 election. But we only briefly touched on the social and economic changes that underlie this new politics — the very real ways boys and men have been falling behind.

We discuss how the current education system places boys at a disadvantage, why boys raised in poverty are less likely than girls to escape it, why so many young men look to figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate for inspiration, what a better social script for masculinity might look like and more.

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Book recommendations:

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carol Sabouraud and Kristina Samulewski.

[robpepper]

I'm disappointed that this conversation about masculinity that lasted nearly 2 hours did not talk about mentorship. In my view, having access to mentorship as a boy, young man and middle-aged man is the most important concern today in regards to maturation in men. Maybe the closest they came to talking about that topic was the notion ontological security, but they did not go into it at all - how a sense of self is engrained in the psyche over time.

[TAGER_]

there's an old African proverb the goes something like "if a village doesn't not embrace it's young men then they will burn down the village to feel it's warmth"

[harperwelch]

I’m a male who taught elementary school for 11 years and loved it. But it’s not a career than you can raise a family on. I chose to start my own business and worked much better for me and my family.

[ralfmatters]

This has been a fascinating discussion, thank you. As a father of 3 daughters and a pro-feminist man, I was surprised that there was no discussion of western societies valorization of men's capacity for violence. Not that those who identify as women are not capable of violence but society have many industries inviting men into violent ways of being. Young men are submerged in the practice of ranking themselves in the 'skills' of violent activity, think video games, 'contact' sports and representations of military action.

Aren't the orchids explained by placing young human 'males' in the socially ambiguous position of eliciting a capacity for violence and simultaneously demanding that they not act upon this valorized capacity, until the sporting club or ruling elite require them.

Ask yourself, haven't you thought of yourself as a threat, simply by being a man? Walking in the opposite direction to a woman on the same footpath? We are encouraged to cross over and understandably so, men are the agents of violence against women.

The subject position we ask young men to take up, especially in contemporary western societies is structurally unstable, violence is good, violence is bad. The recruitment into violence is pervasive and under erasure. Only those young men with sufficient cultural resources are able to navigate this toxic subjectivity.
Women are increasingly asked to take up violent ways of being. We are starting to see young women perform historically masculine pathologies; self harm, increasing risk taking, increasing rates of crimes against another.

[zoeolsson]

Men are wonderful and i fully support research into how to support boys and men. The feminism movement was never about getting back at men but bring women alongside. Feminism still has many ongoing issues to fix but we don't want men falling behind in other areas either.

[harperwelch]

All teachers in the US should make $100k per year. Quality of employees, quality of education would go up and good employees would stay in the teaching profession.

[threeofeight]

Awe. The son thinking only women could be doctors makes me so sad. 😢. It reminds of when I was in kindergarten and told a girl she couldn’t be a doctor because men were doctors and women are nurses. (I thought they were gendered terms for the same thing at the time). Anyway she started crying and I learned something that day. lol. It’s true tho. Kids reflect the world they see. 😕

[ElizabethEAM]

We raise boys and girls differently. At home, in culture, and in institutions. We teach boys to focus on the moment and girls to focus on the future. Plus our culture is set up to not give out any second chances. It’s very hard to succeed (financially and therefore in life) without being perfect from childhood. And a lot of those factors that go into being perfect are out of our control. It’s a rigged game for everyone one but those little differences in how we raise genders really get amplified.

[paulboileau]

It's absolutely bizarre to me that concern for male education, welfare and outcomes could be labelled a "right-wing talking point". Ezra seems almost sheepish and embarrassed to discuss the topic, as though he could be accused of a betrayal of left-wing values.

This is a dangerous trend for all American families and the left generally. The Democratic Party's most solid base was working men until at least the late 1970s.

[daveSoupy]

The bit at around 1:32:00 ish about institutions being really important for men is incredibly interesting and probably needs to be explored more. I can see that weekly or monthly meeting of people as being a key way to meet and form relationships for men that wouldn’t happen otherwise.

[lindagalliher]

In my view Title 9 primarily impacted sports financially. But the big message to girls, who had previously internalized their perceived inferiority, opened their minds to equality.

[TimeIdle]

You did stupendously, sir. Thank you!

[SoulInquiries]

My 2 cents of life experience: having a now 28 year old son I saw much of this first hand. He's doing fine but he didn't hit his stride until about 26. I understand the frontal lobe for boys is completely developed far later than girls (25 for boys which is why they can't rent a car before then) and all along the parenting journey the girls were FAR ahead of the boys beginning in kindergarten. The girls, as a rule, had it together "out of the gate" but as a rule the boys did not. The kindergarten was filled with boys wanting to run around and had difficulty sitting down and the girls were writing the alphabet, reading, etc. All through the school experience it held true that the girls matured much earlier and were ready for adulthoodmuch earlier. Even post high school into college, my son struggled but made it through. I would say that only now, in his 28th year do I detect mature conversation ability where I can have more of a peer to peer conversation, whereas I could have a similar conversation with a middle school girl with could be on the same level. It has astounded me througout my parenting experience that the boys were, again as a rule, far behind the girls by every measure but most notably in the area of maturity. Girls are usually ready to be adults but it takes much longer for the boys to be interested in being an adult and the responsibilities that entails. They seem happy to remain in childhood much longer.

[beemo]

I'm surprised Ezra didn't ask about how being raised without a dad increases the risk of educational problems and behavioral problems for boys. The US has the world's highest rate of fatherless kids.

[ecyranot]

Very interesting interview. I felt the guest did not have an agenda but told us what he found and when he changed his mind on certain ideas.

l was struck by the last third of the show that explored Petersen and Tate and shaping men, there wasn't a single mention of the role of the father!!!!

[carmencortelyou]

Are there any statistics on whether gay boys fare better, worse, or differently, in school than straight boys?

[mkkrupp]

We all compare ourselves to others. When I was young, I remember that boys were valued more than girls. Young boys knew this and I even heard them say that they were glad they weren’t a girl. Young women were urged to get married, they didn’t get equal pay and often had to resign their jobs upon marriage. ‘Their role’ was basically to be mothers and to serve their husbands. This was normal life. Young boys grew up with an innate sense of superiority and the engrained feeling that they were the better sex. This gave them a sense of self esteem that was not really earned. As adults their control of the money, combined with their greater physical strength, gave them power vis a vis women.
With the rise of feminism, equal opportunities for women and anti discrimination legislation, (combined with the greater discipline of women) they have lost this sense of superiority, power and status that they previously had.
That’s why many of them seem confused and ‘lost’.
And, incidentally, that’s why there’s a backlash against feminism and a rise in misogyny.

[xzyeee]

The construct of masculinity has dwindled in authenticity. That has a lot to do with men themselves and how women raised boys to become men in the absence of men. The issue is made worse when we try to define authenticity in relation to what a man is. Doing manhood is more than just being able to name all the tools in a toolbox, more than just pleasing a woman sexually, more than standing like a statue of steel - fists clenched - in front of an F4 tornado, more than just guzzling down a case of beers to impress friends. That's the problem, doing authentic manhood is linked too closely by too many men to the negative, the mundane and the downright dumb... and they high five each other mentally for this. The concept of balance is missing but I think the damage is too severe to reverse.

[davidingham]

My favorite and most useful class in junior high school was metal shop.

[zarimc]

Only about 20 minutes in, but truly how much of the performance difference in certain skills between boys and girls about socialization vs. biology? In both my personal experience and the experiences of my women friends, girls are socialized more growing up into gender roles that beget organization and other skills. From childhood, girls are socialized into roles of care takers whereas boys are socialized as needing to be care taken. It feels like that would play a bigger role than biology given that there doesn’t seem to be much evidence or evolutionary aspects to support girls maturing faster than boys. And given that girls are expected to mature faster (add in dimensions of race when talking about Black and Latina girls in particular) how does that translate into behavioral expectations for girls compared to boys? It seems like it’s less socially acceptable for girls to slack off compared to boys which I think would also play a role in school performance.