Drones, politics and costs are killing Europe’s Tigers.

This video talks about Tiger attack helicopters and their future. Why are some user countries abandoning it? Will its planned modernization to through? And is the Tiger slowly disappearing from the market?

00:00 - Video introduction
00:51 - Reductions in procurement numbers
01:28 - The significance and costs of the Tiger 3 upgrade.
02:00 - German Plans to Retire Tigers
04:15 - Issues with Tiger Fleet
06:15 - Australia's Decision to Choose Apache
07:20 - Future of French and Spanish Tigers
09:30 - Bleak Future for Attack Helicopters
11:02 - Conclusion

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[ald]

Military helo pilot here. I remember a conference more than ten years ago when we were talking about our US weapon and training issues. When a German Tiger pilot had the floor (very cool, professional gent, by the way) he started with 'I wish we had your problems'.

[papaschlumpf]

I've been in the German Army back in 1988/89 and I used to be in an anti tank helicopter regiment. No pilot, just conscript ground personnel (I was working in the supply subunit to be precise). We used the good old BO 105 in those days. The Bo was a solid helicopter but as a basically civilian machine it lacked almost everything to make it a real attack helicopter. No armour, no real ECM, no armament save the ATGMs. Our only role was defensive anti tank warfare, always staying over friendly lines. The Bo was nimble and therefore perfect for quickly building anti tank focus where needed. But it was clear that the Bo would never become a true battle helicopter. Hovering for some time with full armament already brought it to its limits. When the Tiger was announced later we were a bit puzzled. The Tiger was, not only for my taste, simply too light. The Bo had 6 ATGMs, the Tiger could carry 8. The outer weapon stations were only usable for AA-missiles (Stinger). We had expected somewhat stronger, like the Apache who could carry twice the load. So the Tiger was cursed from the start. If you have the logistic chain to operate a helicopter, then why get such a yob? Why not a "real" thing.
The next disadvantage of the Tiger was its lack of ruggedness. The Apache may be ugly, but it is robust. Tiger always seemed delicate, almost fragile.
The third problem was a typical european peculiarity. As numbers would always be low, the system itself had to be multi role capable. In addition France and Germany wanted different capabilites. Germany wanted a more or less sole anti tank helicopter, the French wanted something all in a box. So three variants were developed. An anti tank version (Germany), a support helicopter (France) and an escort and protection variant (France). As the basic system was the same, each variant was hampered by at least some rudimentary capabilites still present in the design but not needed for its role. In short: The Tiger could do a lot, but nothing really good.
The low readiness rates are, at least in the German Army, a result not so much from the machine itself but rather from the highly ineffective supply and maintenance chain, saved to death after world peace had broken out in 1991 combined with exuberant bureaucracy and regulations - a typical German malady.
I will not cry a tear for it. Just getting rid of any AT helicopter is, in my opinion, a mistake.

[davidpalmer]

Hello from Australia. I am ex-army and we heard rumors long after we "acquired" the tigers that a few senior officers that were involved in the acquisition process retired and got VERY cushy jobs in Airbus and associated companies afterwards. Apparently it happens a lot. It seems that authoritarian countries are not the only ones with these issues.

[eliasstenman]

Originally I didn’t see which channel uploaded this and I was like “Wait, there are tigers living in Europe?”

[steavfox]

The Problem with the Tiger is systemic in nature.
It is the lack of critical mass that haunts a lot of Hightech, low volume Equipment.
Economies of scale do not apply.

Europe needs to increase cooperation when it comes to procurement.
Interoperability, supply chains, Development costs and the viability of upgrades all suffer when economies of scale do not apply.
Economies of scale will never truly apply when everyone in Europe prefers doing things their way and "independently".

Yes International Cooperation is troubled.
But its not troubled because the concept is stupid.
It is troubled because the way it is done is stupid.

[captainsigismund]

I have to say i really appreciate the wide variety of topics. You are rarely discussing the samethings as other channels. You are doing great work.

[dukeradwardtheth]

Using medium utility helicopters as weapons platforms going forward doesn't sound that strange, considering both US American Bell AH-1 Viper and South African Denel Rooivalk are based on Bell UH-1 Huey and Áerospitale SA 330 Puma respectively

[DamImperial]

the Australian tigers kept breaking down and the manufacturer either wasnt able or wasnt willing to fix the issues and that is a big reason why they changed to the American helicopter atleast thats what the news over here was saying about it

[jorehir]

Italy is building a new attack helicopter, the AW249.
It's in the same weight class as the VIper (half way between the Tiger and the Apache), but packing 40% more power.
Its success (or lack of) should tell us about the future of attack helicopters...

[eddgar-cemd]

This video is not quite accurate.
"Germany is planning to replace the tiger with flying carpets." - this a more accurate information that the video.

[MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww]

This is either germany being, as usually, way to complacent again or its a smart move to free up ressources for stuff that actually going to matter in a future war scenario. I can´t tell.

[Jon.A.Scholt]

Australia has been regretting buying this lemon from Day One. It has an absolutely atrocious record in Aussie service.

[MrBahjatt]

The A-129 'Mangusta' should have been the Europcopter.

[garrym]

I worked with the OG British army integration team for Trigat which was the whole point of Eurocopter as it was envisaged. The entire thinking was that there was going to be a single weapon across helicopter, vehicle and man-portable platforms. After millions of pounds and tens of thousands of hours testing the avionics and logistics we were ready to move forward with Trigat even though the apache was battle proven. Anyway, it was only at the last minute that someone bothered to ask how much the Trigat MR weighed. It was something like 20kg per missile, 18kg for the firing post and another 10kgs for the thermal sight. It hadn’t ever been considered how man portable the damn thing actually was, and it was essentially a very expensive and very heavy Milan that couldn’t really be carried by infantry. And that was the end of Trigat for us. No Trigat, no eurocopter.

[quakethedoombringer]

There is a a rumor circling around that Italy is purchasing the latest Leopard in exchange for Germany purchasing of the A249 Leonardo.
At the same time, Bell is offering to build a factory in Germany if they are interested in the AH 1Z Viper so I suppose Germany has some options
The problem with the Tiger is that while it is undisputedly modern for its time, the questionable doctrine, at least in the case of the Bundeswehr, combined with the neglected upgrade due to constant budget cut and the helicopter itself being light and unoptimized platform means that there is little room for improvement, unlike the AH 64 or AH 1,

[hilairelaplume]

If I read an article correctly the Apaches already have the potential to use drones to get them targeting information so that they can fire from behind tree cover or mountain cover? That little move right there would actually be pretty game-changing

[verfugbarkite]

Europe (including UK) need to shape up. We’re falling behind.

[thelowpro]

I like the idea of using the H145M. It is cheap and with good sensors and rockets it can be pretty usefull. If you´re hit by an AA-missile, it´s over anyway.

[k]

The UH-72 Lakota isn't equipped for combat because that would undermine the entire reason they were bought, to provide low-cost all-weather light helicopters. It would cost $780 million (over $2 million per in 2013 dollars) and add 774 pounds of weight to each helo (about 10% of max TO weight or 20% of empty weight) which means some missions would no longer be possible.

[longtsun]

One has to wonder how badly Eurocopter and its successor, Airbus Helicopters, are run. Considering Boeing's current state, losing a contract to the company's products is like losing a footrace to someone with a peg leg.