Dr. Jonathan Haidt: How Smartphones & Social Media Impact Mental Health & the Realistic Solutions

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Jonathan Haidt, Ph.D., professor of social psychology at New York University and bestselling author on how technology and culture impact the psychology and health of kids, teens, and adults. We discuss the dramatic rise of suicide, depression, and anxiety as a result of replacing a play-based childhood with smartphones, social media, and video games.
 
He explains how a screen-filled childhood leads to challenges in psychological development that negatively impact learning, resilience, identity, cooperation, and conflict resolution — all of which are crucial skills for future adult relationships and career success. We also discuss how phones and social media impact boys and girls differently and the underlying neurobiological mechanisms of how smartphones alter basic brain plasticity and function. 
 
Dr. Haidt explains his four recommendations for healthier smartphone use in kids, and we discuss how to restore childhood independence and play in the current generation. 

This is an important topic for everyone, young or old, parents and teachers, students and families, to be aware of in order to understand the potential mental health toll of smartphone use and to apply tools to foster skill-building and reestablish healthy norms for our kids.

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Timestamps
00:00:00 Dr. Jonathan Haidt
00:02:01 Sponsors: Helix Sleep, AeroPress & Joovv
00:06:23 Great Rewiring of Childhood: Technology, Smartphones & Social Media
00:12:48 Mental Health Trends: Boys, Girls & Smartphones
00:16:26 Smartphone Usage, Play-Based to Phone-Based Childhood
00:20:40 The Tragedy of Losing Play-Based Childhood
00:28:13 Sponsor: AG1
00:30:02 Girls vs. Boys, Interests & Trapping Kids
00:37:31 “Effectance,” Systems & Relationships, Animals
00:41:47 Boys Sexual Development, Dopamine Reinforcement & Pornography
00:49:19 Boys, Courtship, Chivalry & Technology; Gen Z Development
00:55:24 Play & Low-Stakes Mistakes, Video Games & Social Media, Conflict Resolution
00:59:48 Sponsor: LMNT
01:01:23 Social Media, Trolls, Performance
01:06:47 Dynamic Subordination, Hierarchy, Boys
01:10:15 Girls & Perfectionism, Social Media & Performance
01:14:00 Phone-Based Childhood & Brain Development, Critical Periods
01:21:15 Puberty & Sensitive Periods, Culture & Identity
01:23:55 Brain Development & Puberty; Identity; Social Media, Learning & Reward
01:33:37 Tool: 4 Recommendations for Smartphone Use in Kids
01:41:48 Changing Childhood Norms, Policies & Legislature
01:49:13 Summer Camp, Team Sports, Religion, Music
01:54:36 Boredom, Addiction & Smartphones; Tool: “Awe Walks”
02:03:14 Casino Analogy & Ceding Childhood; Social Media Content
02:09:33 Adult Behavior; Tool: Meals & Phones
02:11:45 Regaining Childhood Independence; Tool: Family Groups & Phones
02:16:09 Screens & Future Optimism, Collective Action, KOSA Bill
02:24:52 Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, YouTube Feedback, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter

#HubermanLab #MentalHealth

[madligm]

My six year old heard this podcast in the car with me while I drive him back and forth from camp. I'm still in tears over the fact that he thanked me for keeping him away from screens, and said he loved me. I honestly didn't even think he was actively listening to everything that was being said, but this was life changing.

[nikitakorobkin]

When I was 13, I went to a summer camp. Phones were banned. You got them for 1.5 hours every day to call parents. Otherwise, children were forced to find other ways to entertain themselves. We had actual conversations, played chess when really bored, participated in fun events, just hanged out at the beach. It was one of the best periods of my life. It felt like actually living. And when I got back home, it felt surreal. Two completely different realities.

[jamesbell]

I'm a school teacher. Getting this across to kids and parents is CORE

[aarkinsahu]

Hi Dr. Andrew Huberman. I am 17 and I found this video really really interesting. Social media has never been the oh so love for any teen. And I say this because I have the experience of feeling a void, a sense of loneliness with the social media. The endless hours of scrolling reels, time flying by has all taken a toll on me. Through this video, It certainly helped me and I messaged my friends, I will quote this " i don't feel social media truly fulfilling and hence I am quitting it." I have completely deleted my social media account. I will come back to this comment a month later and tell you all how I feel. I feel oh so excited now. Thank you Andrew for your interest in science.

[michaelbrooke]

Thank you for this interview! I am a high school teacher. As a result of Dr. Haidt’s book “The Anxious Generation” my school board is considering a much more stringent electronic device policy. This policy will effectively ban phones during regular school hours. This issue is so important to me that after reading the book I bought copies for all admins and school board members paid for out of my own pocket.

If you have not been in a high school in the last 10 years, you have no idea how the dynamic has changed. In the best of times teens have had a brief attention span and were socially awkward. Now, well into the smart phone/social media era, attention spans are nonexistent. Face-to-face conversations between teens happen infrequently if at all. Children (teens are still children) will sit in the presence of one another, yet be lost in their digital world. A total phone ban at school is one way to combat this trend of social media social isolation.

And a side benefit is less time that I have to spend saying “little Johnny, put your phone away” and more time for learning!

[thevirtuouscollector]

I haven't watched the full podcast yet but what cured my social media, phone and doom scrolling addiction were 3 non-cognitively demanding things (be warned, this might make you laugh at how pathetic I am!)


1-- Portable games console. Unlike social media, a single player videogame has a finite play time with an actual ending. You play a game to indulge in it's gripping story, keep your brain active and your hands busy. Avoid multiplayer online games and go for the ones with great stories.

2-- Carry a notebook around. Journal, write down your thoughts, unleash your inner passion or frustrations, always have a small note book ready at all times and

3-- Carry a small action figure. Yes you heard that right, I have a small pose-able figurine of Batman I carry around like a demented dork that I do action poses whenever I feel like wasting time on my phone. The satisfaction of seeing Batman doing the Gangnam Style pose is usually adequate enough to quell my cravings for something novel on social media at the cost of my friends and family mocking me. Now go forth and be as insane as I am! At least you'll be cured from the endless doomscrolling without relying on drugs!

[charliebrens]

I am 77. Spent all my 20s in Europe. No phone. No TV. No car. Maybe the 10 best years of my life.

[komred]

Very important to note that even adults that grew up without smartphones are as hooked and affected as teenagers these days.

[anynimus]

Boredom is absolutely key to healthy brain development in children, and it is an important tool to adults as well. My husband never understood why I let the kids be bored when they were little. Bored kids quickly get creative to give their little brain the dopamine hit it wants. My kids had crafting materials at their disposal, they had a park where I let them range free, and they became creative little people. Even now, my adult son will start creating when bored. Usually cooking or baking! Win!!!

[ankitjain]

My mom has Schizophrenia from last 25 years. She has no mobile, no friends, and doesn't watch TV. She just sits by herself in her room, or most of the time, sleeps. She had no mobile before her illness too.

But if you talk to her, she will patiently and calmly talk to you for long, listen, and most importantly, not get agitated even after a heated argument where only I get stressed. She is so much available. Her thoughts are not influenced by mobile content, social media and endless barrage of "comparison".

Please allow yourself to get "BORED". BOREDOM will help you to explore more in your relationship and life as you become emotionally available for others.

There's really something very peculiar about people who have been untouched by mobile and TV in their lives.

Thanks Dr. Huberman and Dr. Jonathan.

[sarahfisher]

Born in 89 here and a parent to 3 young children. Something that stood out to me is the fact that parents feel obligated to give their kids a phone because “everyone else’s” kids have one. This feels like a new phenomenon. When I was a kid I was always complaining that I am the only one that doesn’t have this or do that and my parents basically said “so what.” Parents today seem to feel an obligation to assist their children to conforming to peer pressure for acceptance and I wonder if this is the product of adult and parent social media use. This episode is such a blessing as I can get ahead of some of these conversations in my home before they come up. Thank you again for a phenomenal episode!

[cloudbloom]

I stopped using social media (besides youtube) cold turkey three years ago and it has been such an improvement in my life. I didn't send one last message, one last post telling everyone i was getting off the apps i just literally stopped going to the sites and using the apps. It's easier to do than one might think even if you're hopelessly addicted like i was, spending ten hours a day scrolling through various groups and online communities. The only things I miss are memes and funny cat pics, the sense of community in various groups but i have real world family and friends who provide that sense of community far more than anyone I've met online aside from a handful of close friends. Make the change yourself It's far far easier than you might think!

Thanks Doc for this one, love the show🙏

[JosephBlanch]

I’ve listened to a few interviews with Jonathan Haidt but this is by far the most interesting one I’ve heard as Huberman and Haidt play off of each other and get each other more and more excited and they are learning from each other in real time. Incredible and such a fun interview.

[jcstuart]

Giving your children a smart phone is not giving them access to the world, it's giving the world access to them.

[HareKrishnaPerth]

I love how this episode goes back and forth between the two, and they are both getting information from each other.
It's nice

[andrewconnor]

Jon haidt, his book the happiness hypothesis, is one of the greatest books of all time. I have read a lot a lot a lot of books on mental health. I reread his book recently and it smokes the crap out of 99.9 percent of any book on mental health. The guy is an absolute genius. Has no peers... This man.... Beyond hardcore

[BoyProdigyBaby]

I am an addict, and first step to my recovery was deleting my all social media profiles like facebook, instagram etc. I had more time and space in my life to think about myself and my addiction. Still off social media, sober for almost a year now.

[Ryanandboys]

This is why I'll raise my kids on the farm where they have responsibilities but still have fun and learn while being outside getting exercise. I think it's a tragedy that we went too far to remove work responsibility from kids. Hell alot of kids never have to do any work untill they graduate from college at 22 or older! That's insane I started helping on the farm by 5, was driving tractors by 12 and doing chore and supervising my younger sibling by 11.

[lenastubner]

Thank you!!! I just called some parents who got really exited about getting together and ask the school to take the phones away from our children upon arrival! Let's do this!!!! Thank you so much for this extremely important podcast.

[Shelley-ebkz]

Horses communicate via reading awareness of energy / body language… I think women seek the companionship of horses because they require you to be in a calm state of mind…. It feels very good to be near a horse you’ve bonded with… they smell amazing, their skin is so sensitive … nothing more relaxing than watching the sun rise sitting on a tree stump, with a big coffee, your horse nuzzling your hair - hits every sense in a beautiful way