58mm is a Mistake: Depth vs Diameter Examined

I hope this video was helpful in understanding, at least a bit more, the relationship between depth and diameter of your espresso puck. While this video certainly provides no concrete answers to which is best, the aspiration was to present you all with at least an attempt to understand a bit better espresso extraction and the long standing debate of diameter size.

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Time Cues

0:00- The Dilemma
5:35- The Methodology
8:09- The Results
11:49- The Routine
13:49- The Extractions
16:46- The Taste Test
18:41- The Hugo
19:00- The Hopeful Followup
20:05- The Conclusion

[petegalvs]

I'm just waiting for this conversation to come full circle and for us to realize that pressurized baskets were the answer all along

[purrito]

Is this what happens to audiophiles when they discover espresso?

[JMSargeant]

Lance, I love you. You have a hypothesis, and then you experiment and present data. Thank you for inquisitive nature and not trying to hype the latest thing.

[michaelcolley]

I really enjoy all these recent videos where you're questioning and testing all the various standard espresso practices.

[aosyborg]

I tried doing 20g in my 58mm portafilter instead of my usual 18g with the idea that I would have to go coarser to maintain the the same extraction time. Best cup I've made in a long time. Thank you for the thoughts and helping me better understand what's going on.

[gravlygravy]

Just to make everyone jealous, I am on a 42.5mm basket - the Caravel. Thanks for helping cure my 58mm FOMO!

[aramse]

Selling all my 58mm machines and moving back to the Flair PRO 2. Lol. Great video, super interesting results! Did you by any chance compare with a declining pressure profile? We know that those shots tend to taste better so I'd be curious to know if the cups converge in terms of taste when you go a little easier on the shallower puck.

[ffsolutions]

This reminds me of another ancient discussion about depth vs girth, but hey... on with the video. 😂

[JoelBecker]

This is amazing and fascinating information. Maybe I can stop having 58mm envy!

My kit is all Breville (Barista Express for years, with the recent addition of a Bambino), and I generally really enjoy them. I've never worried much about the grinder on the Barista Express, because I've always known my technique is the limiting factor. I'm just not that much of an expert.

But in the back of my mind, I've always had this nagging worry that the 54mm baskets were leaving something on the table. Not "professional" enough. Somehow the "lesser" option. I think I'm done with that. I will continue to rock my 54mm baskets without that inferiority complex.

Thank you for all of your work, Lance. I've also switched to your "coarser grind, fuller basket" workflow, and it's significantly improved the consistency of the shots I pull with the Barista Express grinder. No joke, that video was like a $100 grinder upgrade for me.

[NicolasStevens-cr]

What a rabbit hole you have just opened for me 😅.
I dialled in my Solis/Breville (54mm) as follows: 18gr in, 36gr out -> adjust grind size to taste/ pressure/ speed. I was only a click away from minimum on the grinder…
Started thinking about better grinders, new machine, ….
Now I just tried 24gr/ 52gr with a much coarser grind….. and it completely changed the espresso. What a difference ❤.
Instead of buying new gear, I’m just going to use more beans from now on 😅 & much more experimenting the coming days 😊
Thanks for another great video.
PS: If I were to consider a new machine, it would have to be one that is ready to use in a few minutes… so please keep the reviews of thermoblock machines coming ❤

[whitestone]

Thank you for making this video. I have not purchased my espresso machine yet and this kind of content makes me feel better about buying a smaller portafilter machines. I've been mentally giving negative 'points' to any machine without a 58mm when trying to decide what to buy. I might still get a 58mm machine, but this kind of content helps me make a more informed decision when purchasing.

And yes, please lets have the follow-up video!

[thomascee]

This is why we love Lance. He asks the questions none of us even realize existed.

[DiamondPlted]

Glad to hear this as I have a Flair Espresso, which has a narrow, deep, bed. To keep it brief, I've always liked the shots I've pulled with it but now I'm not going to feel the FOMO of the Flair 58. Thank you!

[gregorcutt]

Always information overload with a nonstop, free flow of ideas, nonstop entertainment. I’ve always felt that a deeper puck was implied to give a better experience. I very much appreciate the ideas that you put forth and the lengths you go to, to present them.

[DaniilOskolkov]

That's the discussion that we needed to bring up for a long time. As always, thank you!🙏🏻

[francisvaughan]

Aspect ratio is almost certainly the wrong metric.
Depth of puck is almost certainly the only thing that matters, and the aspect ratio is just a derived value that comes from nothing other than the dose. Working with a deep 58mm basket is still only going to be a matter of depth. I would feel 100% certain that if you pulled a shot in the 49mm and 58mm with the same depth, but ran the shots so that they had a volume of fluid proportional to the volume of coffee in the baskets, the shots would be near identical.

There is something important here, and you have been iterating towards it for a while now. This is good stuff.

I suspect that what is needed is a parametrisable model of extractives flow for a coffee particle, and basic 3D model of flow though the puck coupled to extractives flow. You have a range of polar and non-polar extractives. The rate of extraction of polar extractives will depend upon the concentration already in the water flowing past. Non polar extractives may extract differently with changes in pH and other interesting things. In principle it should be possible to predict the extraction profile if you have such a model.
All the messing about with grind size, grind distribution, and pressure is just a very decoupled and inexact way of trying to optimise the the balance of extractives. But it is horridly unstable, and there is no sensible overarching model to guide us. These videos point the way in a useful manner.

[vsepotap]

Ok, so this hansome man, just proves that all tha baristas said you need professional coffee machine for more pressure, you have to have 58 mm basket for better taste were wrong. This exactly man, Lance Hedrick, eventually prooved, that awesome cup of espresso can be done with home machine like Dedica 685 or similar, that gives you 7 bar pressure, have more narrow basket, which is 51 for delonghi! And you also don't need Niche Zero anymore because of Turin DF 40 and DF 54. Love you man, thank you som much!

[gregkielec]

I started my espresso journey with a BBE about 8 years ago and always felt I got my best espresso shots with it despite slowly climbing my way to 58mm machines — more recently a GCP, then an ECM Classika. Then 2 months ago we snatched up a Bambino Plus for coffee during an extended stay at a distant friend’s. And wouldn’t you know it? I was pulling really tasty espresso again. I thought maybe I was romanticizing the quality of the BBE espresso but your video, Lance, shows that maybe my mind wasn’t playing tricks on me after all. Apparently aspect ratio matters! Thanks for the video!!

[jjunek]

Cant honestly believe how great of a content you are creating right here. Thank you very much and keep up the good work. I do not tend to fomo after a new machine, but it is so interesting to dig deeper into the world of espresso making through the lens of an coffee expert like yourself. Hope im nit being too needy/positive or something, but i wanted to give you a positive feedback for a long time.

[Ioipod]

This reminds me a lot of the discussions (pre pandemic) of the Flair Pro / Pro 2 vs the Robot basket. Somehow it was to be believed that Robot’s bigger basket yield a more professional shot than Flair’s 45.5 due to its size but it was never my experience 😅 I also preferred shots made by these antique Italian lever machines.

Thing is, with the smaller Flair Pro size (which I still use, the first one with the new basket) it was really, really difficult to make a bad shot. It’s also very much true that you could grind quite a bit coarser than on the robot. The texture was always quite good, even with coarser grounds, and channeling still happened but 90% of the time it was due to weak tamping.

Even Flair has moved to 58 now so don’t really know how reversible this trend is or if it’s worth it, but loved the video and what you brought to the table!