Mindscape 281 | Samir Okasha on the Philosophy of Agency and Evolution

Just like with physics, in biology it is perfectly possible to do most respectable work without thinking much about philosophy, but there are unmistakably foundational questions where philosophy becomes crucial. When do we say that a collection of matter (or bits) is alive? When does it become an agent, capable of making decisions? What are the origins of morality and altruistic behavior? We talk with one of the world's leading experts, Samir Okasha, about the biggest issues in modern philosophy of biology.

Samir Okasha received his D.Phil. in Philosophy from the University of Oxford. He is currently Professor of the Philosophy of Science at the University of Bristol. He is a winner of the Lakatos Award for his book Evolution and the Levels of Selection, and is a Fellow of the British Academy.

#podcast #ideas #science #philosophy #culture

[scrubjay]

I'm about halfway through, in the discussion of "mental representation of a goal" in animals and it drives me crazy when the speakers are unaware of the latest studies of the cognitive capabilities of the Norway rat - Rattus norvegicus, the animal found in laboratories, the New York subway, and kept as pets. There is an article from November 2023 in Science magazine titled "Volitional activation of remote place representations with a hippocampal brain–machine interface" which describes a fascinating experiment. From the editor's summary: "By combining virtual reality and a real-time brain‐machine interface, Lai et al. discovered that rats directly controlled their hippocampal neuronal firing in a goal-directed manner... Rats first formed a hippocampal map of a virtual environment. Then, in brain‐machine interface mode, they demonstrated the ability to activate representations from this map corresponding to specific remote locations, which then brought either them or an object to spatial goals. The rats could sustain a hippocampal representation of a remote location for tens of seconds, reminiscent of human imagination or mental time travel." A second article in the same issue of Science is titled "The neural basis of mental navigation in rats". Rats are often overlooked in discussions of animal intelligence, but were also the first species apart from humans to display altruism toward non-related conspecifics in two separate laboratory experiments. The Norway rat is a highly intelligent and social species.

[techteampxla]

What an amazing guest and interesting topic. Stop, collaborate, and listen!

[coorz]

Great talk. I appreciated the pushback against biological teleology and the vitalist view of evolution. Samir offers a clear distinction between teleology and teleonomy that I found useful when thinking about evolutionary biology.

[millatron]

I think on the topic of what are the selectors in natural selection, capability is the only answer broad enough to encompass all the levels of selectors at play. Capabilities occur at every level, from the capabilities of chemistry of the organism, to the cells they create, to the organs and nerves and muscles, to the intelligence of the whole, to the group dynamics and capabilities, to the species, to its place in the food chain, to the symbiotic interspecies relationships it creates and on and on.

In the end, its the set of capabilities that determine whether or not you can survive the stresses of your local existence.

[JianYZhong]

My own working definition of agency is the capacity to form and pursue goals other than self-regarding goals. It’s quite a stringent standard, which not all humans achieve. The neo-classical economics assumption of households and firms as only maximising utility/profits do not meet this criteria.

But some non-human mammals do achieve this - eg, elephant matriarchs that put themselves at risk to protect the herd.

[GurtTarctor]

I'd love to see a discussion between Samir and Michael Levin...

[jynxkizs]

Subjective projections seem like a negotiation with the strategies that the universe allows, within the context of other current strategies.

[hoolioh]

Prof. Carroll, I don't know if you read the comments, but can you get a philosopher of chemistry or a philosophically oriented chemist? Philosophy of Chemistry does not get much love!

[georgerobinson]

I didn’t get that assembly theory required new laws of physics, but only that the theorems of assembly theory had to be onsistent with laws of physics and might emerge in the same sense that fluid mechanics emerges from statistical mechanics.

[CarlBurnss]

There would be no discussion if there were only single cells🤓

[rumblefishes]

Interesting conversation. Sean's poorly timed chuckle at almost everything his guests say is always distracting though, it must be said.

[wris]

I wish all the people who wonder about altruism/egoism in the contexts of evolution would read Rand. The terms are broken and once the terms are fixed it is easy to see how egoism is always winning strategy. Egoism ≠ isolationist individualism. Egoism = building alliances, trading and cooperation.

In this talk you equate egoist to a parasitic behaviour which is oxymoron especially when speaking about species like humans. Evolution will always maximize win-win interactions, parasitic behaviour is win-lose. A human tribe with more win-win interactions is vastly superior in survival fitness. Fitness of the individual and the tribe are not in conflict, it is the opposite. Egoism is the strongest weapon against parasitic behaviour, egoist have no problem with cooperation.

Self sacrifice is never optimal strategy. Lower lifeforms use it as a strategy because they are incapable of thinking and predicting future. Humans are very different organism and has vastly different survival strategies that are superior to any self sacrificing strategies.

[povilaskimutis]

No wonder no progress is made in biology with this level of beating around the bush.