Are they really 'Strong' boys?

Amongst the eagle-eyed fans who are able to create intricate theories of secret illegitimacy out of lemon trees not growing in Braavos (aside from a Sealord palace but we're gonna ignore that for the sake of convenience), it is an article of faith that the father of Rhaenyra’s sons was not her husband, Laenor, but her champion, Harwin Strong. But is it really as set in stone as we think? Perhaps genetics played a cruel joke on Rhaenyra and Laenor?

TIMESTAMPS
00:00-02:32 Introduction
02:33-09:11 Who benefits?
09:12-14:48 What prompted the rumors?
14:50-17:11 Conclusion: does it matter?

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SOURCES

MUSIC
Apoxode - Watching the Rain

KEYWORDS
hotd, house of the dragon, fire and blood, house strong, strong boys, house velaryon, laenor velaryon, harwin strong, lucerys velaryon, jacaerys velaryon, joffrey velaryon, rhaenyra targaryen, rhaenys targaryen, luke velaryon, jace velaryon, joff velaryon, asoiaf, a song of ice and fire, fire and blood, video essay, got, game of thrones

[nasch]

When I read Fire and Blood, I never doubted that they were Harwin's sons, but like...I didn't care ? Good for Rhaenyra, Harwin and Laenor, they found happiness in a forced weeding that didn't help anyone (except Viserys I guess).
But anyway, I didn't care because the only ones who cared about it in the universe were the greens and Vaemond Velaryon, so it was just another try of the greens to disinherit Rhaenyra and it's not at all the source of the war : the greens are.
It's so unfortunate that we have more people in reality who care about if Rhaenyra's sons are legitimate or not than actual people living in the asoiaf universe.

[sinthoras]

That in the original draft Rhaenyra married Lyonel Strong is an interesting tidbit I never knew before

[ramixaleandros]

I always thought it would be interesting if they were/are legit. A critique of how certain families are "supposed" to look and the bias against those that don't fit in.
Even with the show I'm not sure, the book accounts are pretty much propaganda. The people of Westeros didn't care, it was really an argument the Greens used.
Genetics isn't that simple, I mean Arryn/Baratheon genes plus the blood magic in the Valyrian genes. Who knows what recessive genes they had, what hair colour genes their parents had that was passed on from family members.

Really enjoyed the video, loving the HOTD ones.

[redjirachi]

I heard a theory out there that the rumors of Rhaenys being unfaithful were because Aegon was infertile, so he permitted her to find a lookalike to conceive an heir. This is also why Visenya used dark magic (maybe) to conceive Maegor (explaining among other things his monstrous fertility issues)

[dragondream-ing]

I love this thought exercise tbh. You do an amazing job laying it all out. GRRM studied history and journalism, he knows all about primary sources and their pitfalls. I think that messiness is wasted on much of the ASOIAF fandom (and especially the “HOTD is better than F&B” people). Primary sources often say more about the source itself and broader societal trends/beliefs than actual facts. Then add a “historian” compiling those primary sources, that person has their own biases and can interpret and twist and exclude things to suit them.

You’re right that it doesn’t matter if Jace, Luke, and Joff are Harwin’s, because the Greens would’ve usurped regardless. The existence of the rumors around their legitimacy aren’t interesting because they’re true or false, but because they tell us about the society they sprouted from and the morals/values/ambitions of the Greens. They give us an idea of what Rhaenyra and her sons would’ve suffered in the capital, the whispers spreading and undermining them. They tell us the Greens resented/feared/judged women with agency and bodily autonomy. They show the hypocrisy of the Hightowers, who supported a faith and institutions that hated Targaryens and magic, but still used the physical markers of Valyrians (and dragons) to claim legitimacy. The rumors are more proof the usurpation was a simple power grab, not some honorable endeavor, even if the antis with their surface level logic claim opposing “bastardy” is morally good. These people would take Jon Snow over Dany because they don’t hate bastardy, they hate the women in the way of their chosen male “heir”

Rhaenyra’s sons were legitimate because she, the heir, was their mother, Laenor claimed them, and Viserys and Corlys upheld their inheritance. The rumors, true or false, illuminate the ambitions and beliefs of the people who spread them, the sources for F&B, and the maester who compiled them into a history. I love F&B because it’s such a tangled mess of bias, but even the pro-Green sources couldn’t twist themselves enough to hide how awful their faves were. The pro-Green fans can only do it by lying, manipulating facts, and calling Rhaenyra a wh*re. I guess it’s only fair since that’s what the Greens did in-universe lmao

[sydnitheromantictaylor]

Harwin Strong is the father but Laenor claimed the boys as his so by law Laenor is the father so they shouldn't be seen as illegitimate.

[rhi-yd]

Ive been binging your videos all day and love them and just wanted to add something to the show trying to make it obvious that the kids were illegitimate.

1. Laenor and Laena are already mixed. Either of them having white passing children with their white spouses is totally possible.
2. Wtf, should we just assume that Rhaena and Baela arent Daemon's since they're much darker? Of course not! Even though it's less likely than Rhaenyra and Laenor's kids being lightskinned.
3. Literally my mom was about Laenor's complexion (and had two black parents) and in the winter I'm not far off from Jace and Luke with my one white parent and one black parent (and again, Laenor is also mixed!)

The show isn't even doing a fantastic job of showing it definitively 😭

[mercuriology]

i loved this video!! please i would love for u to talk more about characters from the dance, or situations regarding the dance. Since hotd is airing.

[helenrose]

The dance was about power and the point of misogyny is also power!

[Chickawah]

The fact that the Greens would’ve found any reason to go against Rhaenyra regardless of the true legitimacy of her children doesn’t mean her having bastards isn’t a reason to criticism her claim.

How would the descendants of the Strong boys coexist with the descendants of Rhaenyra and Daemon’s children? The fact that they are bastards yet get to inherit the throne over the true born children is absolutely a potential source of conflict later down the line that could destabilize the realm and lead to civil war. Just look at the Blackfyre rebellions.

Rhaenyra didn’t just have bastards, she had bastards and tried to pass them off as legitimate. Thereby destabilizing the line of succession and sowing the seeds for future conflicts.

Yes, the Dance of the Dragons is a story about the unfairness of misogyny and sexism in a patriarchal world, but that doesn’t mean Rhaenyra can’t be criticized. She still has plenty of flaws.

Sure, she really had no other option but to pass off the Strong boys as legitimate since her being a woman means no one would tolerate her having bastards even though men having bastards isn’t seen as a big deal.

But while that’s certainly a reason to sympathize with Rhaenyra and her struggle in an inconsistent and unfair sexist world, that doesn’t mean the consequences of her actions disappear. Passing off bastards as legitimate still weakens the line of succession and sows the seeds for future conflicts.

[talrasha]

George Martin has confirmed that they are Harwin's sons. But nevertheless, Laenor gave the children his name, which means they are legitimate. And here only his word matters.

[lololo]

If Rhaynera had been a son Otto would have still tried to quietly kill him to get his line on the throne, he just wouldn't have had the basis to fight a war over it. It is not misogyny that caused the war but self-interest. Otto merely used the fact that Rhaenyra was a woman to pick a bone for convenience

[alorescott]

Hey what happened to your twitter? I can’t find you on there

[thatoneblackdude]

Hey I noticed your Twitter account is gone what happened?