Jagdtiger: Junk Tiger or Übertiger?

The Jagdtiger was the heaviest armored fighting vehicle in World War 2 that was produced in series. It had great firepower but many issues, why it ultimately was a failure.

DISCLOSURE: I was invited by the Tank Museum at Bovington in 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2022.

Cover design by vonKickass.

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Fröhlich, Michael: Schwere Panzer der Wehrmacht: Von der 12,8 cm Flak bis zum Jagdtiger, 1. Auflage, Motorbuch Verlag: Stuttgart, 2015.

Spielberger, Walter J./Doyle, Hilary L./Jentz, Thomas L. (Hgg.): Schwere Jagdpanzer: Entwicklung - Fertigung - Einsatz, Spezialausg., 1. Aufl, Motorbuch-Verl: Stuttgart, 2011 (Motorbuch-Verlag spezial).

Töppel, Roman: Jagdtiger – Koloss auf tönernen Füßen. In Militärgeschichte 2023/04, S. 30-37.

Jentz, Thomas L./Doyle, Hilary Louis: Panzer Tracts No.9: Jagdpanzer: Jagdpanzer 38 to Jagdtiger, Darlington Productions: Darlington, Maryland, USA, 1997.

Fleischer, Wolfgang: Die deutsche Panzerjägertruppe: 1935-1945 : Katalog der Waffen, Munition und Fahrzeuge, Ed. Dörfler im Nebel-Verlag: Eggolsheim-Bammersdorf, Germany, 2007.

#jagdtiger #ww2 #tanks #panzerplatform #jagdpanzer

00:00 Intro
00:45 Origin
03:09 Firepower
04:11 Muzzle Brake
05:50 Armor Penetration Values
07:49 Limits to Firepower
08:35 Armor
09:15 Armor Quality
10:38 Mobility
12:31 Henschel vs Porsche Suspension
14:49 Production
15:14 Summary

[brennus]

Thanks Bernhardt. Easily the best video I've seen today. I recall being somewhat fascinated by this vehicle when I was a teenager. Since then I discovered things like rate of fire, fuel efficiency, railroad gauges, bridge load limits, the benefits of simplicity...

[LayersOfKevlar]

The AD513629 states as follows. "With tank guns using APDS another problem arises in the form of damage
from projectile and driving band components, which discard at the muzzle." "Attempts were made to overcome these difficulties, and a slotted barrel
type brake attempted to retain the sabot, while allowing the gases to escape.".

[himwo.]

I also remember Otto Carius mentioning that the Jagdtiger easily lost its zero during any form of travel, so another negative point for that..

[corentinrobin]

0:05 I didn't know Austrian law legally required its citizens to visit the Bovington tank museum!

[Splattle]

Before somebody says the muzzle brake on the 17 pounder in the Firefly is what affected the accuracy of its APDS, the '77 mm' gun on Comet was an adaptation of the 17 pounder, complete with muzzle brake, and it didn't have accuracy problems with APDS. No, I don't pretend to understand it either.

[vladimpaler]

I do not know how long it takes to design and build a glacis plate, but an engine takes quite a bit of time. (I have worked as an engineer on automotive powertrains.) If one day you change the front plate from 100cm to 150cm it takes a much longer time to up the engine size to push it around. Having to reduce the maximum RPM for reliability means that engine block is at the limit of what it can take. Probably at its bore limit as well. If you do not have materials to make tough armor you are probably also short on hardened engine parts. It is a combination of the imperfect storm.

[captainhurricane]

Perhaps they should have included cost, transport requirements, raw material comsumption and vehicle recovery/repair in their calculations!

[unknownsoldier]

Such a shame they didn't stick with the original name of "Übertiger". That's just awesome xD

[Lykas_mitts]

Random note on the Muzzle brake and sabot, apparently Singaporean Amx-13/75s had an APFSDS round developed for them (and they did retain the muzzle brake).

[pavelslama]

Both Porsche suspension and Henschel suspension were based on torsion bars. But they took a variously different approach to the implementation.
Henschel: normal transverse torsion bars, but in order to use thinner (softer and easier to produce) bars, they put twice as many to each side, which required either super small wheels, or overlapping wheels. Super small wheels would wear out too quickly, and large wheels offered a bit of additional protection to the weakest part of the whole tank - the lower sides.
Porsche: longitudinal torsion bar in each bogie going from one wheel to the other, with a cam on one side and a fixed point on the other side of that bar. The cam connected to opposing cam on the axle of the other wheel of said bogie. This meant that if the wheels pushed away from each other (riding over a bump), it would turn the cam, which would turn the other cam on the torsion bar, which would twist the torsion bar against the fixed point on the opposite side. At least that was the theory. The practice was that the system required a rubber bushing between the cams (which wore out rather quickly) and another rubber block used as bump stop to prevent the suspension from bottoming out so badly that the wheel on the torsion bar would strike the swing arm of the main wheel which connects both to the hull.
Overall it was super complicated, required precise parts and a lot of throwaway rubber parts. It looks simple from the outside, but technically speaking the Henschel suspension is much, much simpler.

[gwilymmorgan]

Excellent presentation, as always. Thank you for your diligent research.

[lysanderxiiii]

The US did a lot of work with sabots in the 76mm gun, which oddly enough had a copy of the German 75mm muzzle brake. And accuracy of the 17 pdr and 76mm were not "terrible", but just not as good as the HVAP. The University of New Mexico did a bunch of work on the US 76mm APDS. As to how to get a sabot through a muzzle brake a quote from the University report: "The design aimed at such strength in this ring [that constrains the sabot pedals] that it would not "explode" at the muzzle but would yield slowly enough to pass through the brake before significant expansion had occurred. The, material used in the ring was cold rolled steel of good elongation. This release is designated as "delayed centrifugal." - Work on Sabot Projectiles by The University of New Mexico Under Contract OEMsr-668 and Supplements, 1942 - 1944, J. W Greig (ADA800118)
EDIT: Found the accuracy results from at test done in 1943: the 50% zone at 1100 yards was 19.2 inches horizontal and 15.6 inches vertical. Nick might consider that "terrible."

[ulfricsombrage]

Otto Carius in his book Tiger in the mud says this is crap and he managed only to get one kill with it, while he got dozens with the Tiger. The main reason is the gun accuracy what a complete disaster.

[THX]

For anyone interested: original documents (after action reports) from sPzJgr.Abt.653 & sPzJgr.Abt.512 (published in the following two books listed below) describe each Jagdtiger loss due to the following causes:

sPzJgr.Abt.653: 1 x Infantry (Bazooka)*/ 2 x Tank or Tank Destroyer/ 4 x Combat Loss Unknown Cause/ 2 x Artillery / 5 x Battle Damage (Mobility kills) / 2 x Combat-Mechanical Breakdown**/ 10 x Self Destroyed-Non-Combat***/ 3 x Field March-Mechanical Breakdown/ 17 x Mechanical Breakdown/ 1 x Bridge Collapse/ 4 x Abandoned [51 Total Losses]

sPzJgr.Abt.512: 1 x Tank or Tank Destroyer/ 1 x Aircraft (Fighter Bomber)/ 1 x Battle Damage (Mobility kills)/ 9 x Combat-Mechanical Breakdown**/ 7 x Self Destroyed-Non-Combat***/ 3 x Mechanical Breakdown/ 5 x Abandoned [27 Total Losses]

78 [ Overall Total Losses ]

Overall Losses
28 Lost due to Combat (35.9%)
23 Lost due to Mechanical Failure Only (29.49%)
17 Self Destroyed*** (21.79%)
9 Abandoned (11.54%)
1 Bridge Failure (1.28%)
78 Overall Total Losses (100%)

Infantry (Bazooka)* = US sources claim killed by an M-36 TD.
Combat-Mechanical Breakdown** = Typically Jagdtigers maneuvering during or just before combat which suffered track breaks or de-tracking (this was frequent failure for vehicles with the early/mid production two piece track links) or other mechanical failures.
Self Destroyed-Non-Combat*** = Good order vehicles destroyed due to lack of fuel.


Sources:
- Münch, Karlheinz Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 653: formerly the Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 197: 1940-1943, J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing Inc. 1997
- Devey, Andrew Jagdtiger: The Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II (No.2): Operational History, Schiffer Military History, 1999

[johnfrench]

Muzzle brakes on vehicle mounted guns are only used if the gun mount (or the the vehicle itself) is unable to take the recoil without suffering damage. In the tanks of WW2, the turret ring in particular was prone to damage from the recoil of high powered weapons - something neither the Jagdtiger nor Hetzer have). If the gun mount and/or vehicle can easily absorb the recoil forces (as is the case for both the Jagdtiger and Hetzer) then there is no point mounting a muzzle brake. It just extra redundant weight and cost.

As for muzzle brakes and APDS rounds, there will be a slight delay (milliseconds or less) after leaving the actual barrel before the sabot really begins to separate from the projectile. The hole at the front of the muzzle brake needs to be slightly larger than the bore of the gun (effectively "timed" to the separation characteristics) to account for the initial slight separation as the projectile and sabot travel thought the muzzle brake and then full separation begins just after they clear the end of the muzzle brake.

[rare_kumiko]

How was the crew supposed to engage enemies at 3 km range without even a rangefinder?

[zvexevz]

Good video. Only thing I wish you included were some reports from combat units detailing their experience using the vehicle at the front, so we could get some more concrete ideas about the tactical and operational difficulties of the Jagtiger. I'm also curious about how many successful engagements it had, and if the massive gun and thick armour ever allowed it to dominate the battlefield in the way its designers claimed it would. I imagine that even if it did, the enemy would quickly adapt and find ways to exploit its many weaknesses.

[StephaneP-ph]

Thats the best technical video i have seen about the jagdtiger!!!
Thank you !!!

[henrynelson]

I believe Nic Moran noted that the British APDS ammo for the 17-pounder had terrible accuracy, might be worth asking him.

[zhufortheimpaler]

*A small correction:
Muzzle brakes appear on german tank guns from the KwK 40/StuK 40 (75mm L/43) onwards. The KwK 36 (37mm), KwK 38 (50mm L/42) and KwK 39 (50mm L/60) didnt have muzzle brakes (exceptions are the KwK 39 on the SdKfz. 234/2 an similar).
So from the PzKpfW. IV Ausf. F2 and StuG III Ausf. F onwards.
The PzKpfW. II has more of a Flashhider than a Muzzle Brake.

APDS works with muzzle brakes, depending on the type of Sabot used.
A Cup Sabot with rigid Petals can be shot through a muzzle brake. (its basicly an APCR Round without ballisitic Cap and the Sabot parts (bottom and petal) will fall off after leaving the muzzle by wind pressure)
A Cup Sabot with deforming Petals can NOT be shot through a muzzle brake, without high risk of severe malfunction. (similar to the upper one, but there the petals deform outwards to release the projectile)
A Base Sabot with discarding Petals can also not be shot through a muzzle brake without risk of malfunction.
If i am not mistaken, the 17pdr used Cup Sabots with rigit Petals for its APDS rounds and the german solution were discarding driving bands on the 128mm APDS (so a cup sabot with discarding petals)